SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hey, welcome to the two older Pure Gold movie podcast, where Gen X and the younger generation revisit movies from the 70s, 80s, and 90s to see if they still hold up. In today's episode, we're discussing the 1982 family fantasy movie The Dark Crystal. I'm your host, Olin Vanderleden, representing Gen X. Joining me today is my Gen X co-host and the skesco of our group, Matthew Stockton. Nice. Representing the Millennials this week, we have comedian Will Corey. Hello, Will.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Hey, what's up? Jesus. Is that too loud? Yeah, it's like Olin always says, like, for people who are like in front of the microphone for a living, you don't know how to use it. All right, sorry, I won't yell. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Also representing the millennials, we have uh huge puppet fan, Anthony.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

And also joining us today, we're very lucky to have a special guest, Brad Elliott, who has had one of those careers that movie fans dream about. Brad, let me know if I get any of this wrong, but here's your intro. Oh boy. Brad Elliott spent decades behind the scenes as a property master, helping create everything from the Muppets to modern movie blockbusters. His resume includes The Muppets, The Adventures of Elmo and Grouchland, Batman versus Superman, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Avatar The Way of the Water. Along the way, he worked with the Jim Henson company in the Muppet Workshop and even stepped in as an additional Muppet performer himself. I got all that right? Yeah, once in a while, I even got to put a penguin on my hand or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah, you're the first guest we've had that can say that.

SPEAKER_04 1:55

Legally say that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

And to all the puppet fans out there, my my first movie as a property master was um was a Trey Parker Matt Stone puppet movie called Team America World Police. And that was one of my absolute favorite jobs because of how incredibly stupid it was and how much if I'd known what I was getting into, I would have been terrified. But that was that I was at that age where you know you can kind of just oh yeah, whatever I can do that. Let's figure it out. I love that movie so much.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

It's it holds up. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Well, Brad, we're we're excited to talk to you a little bit about your career, but first I'm just going to introduce the film. So today we're talking about the Dark Crystal. It's a Jim Henson movie. It was written and directed by Jim. I assume all you young people know Jim Henson, but for anyone that doesn't, Jim Henson was the visionary puppeteer, filmmaker, and storyteller whose groundbreaking imagination gave the world the Muppets and Forever Changed Family Entertainment. After the success of the Muppet movie, Jim Henson wanted to prove puppets could do more than comedy. Teaming up with Frank Oz and fantasy artist Brad Frode, he spent nearly five years creating an entire fantasy world with no human characters. So the tagline from this movie poster is Another World, Another Time, in the Age of Wonder. IMDB describes the film as on another planet in a distant past, the last of the Gelfing Race embarks on a quest to find the missing shard of a magical crystal and to restore order to his world. Okay, so I would love to hear your quick reaction to this movie from everybody, and then we can get into it.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

Um I didn't love this movie. It's it's kind of like a like a bad mushroom trip, to be honest. It was like I don't know, it felt like a like a middle school's like short story that kind of got turned into a script. Like even just some of the names. Like everyone had like a weird different name, and then the main character's name was Jen. I was like, what are we doing here? I don't know. And then the story, it was just I don't know. I wasn't super, super into it. Couldn't really get into the world and stuff, but the the puppeting was cool. I like I like an all puppet movie. I think something different like that's cool to pull off, but just didn't love the plot very much. Matthew. Didn't really buy it.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

What did you think? Is it as good as you remembered?

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Uh it's yeah, actually. And and I'll tell you why why. I think um it's I I like the story because it's not really about good defeating evil. It's about what happens when the world is divided against itself. And and I think we live in a world right now where that's particularly true. And you know, it's a much more sophisticated storyline than most kids' movies that you watch, right? It it's a it's about wholeness, it's about two parts of something needing to be together and about integration for something to work, and you know, and it and it shows that instinct without reflection becomes predatory and reflection without involvement becomes passive, right? Because and that's that's the two sides of this story. And you know, I think it's about healing the world, and and I j I just think it has really big themes that I find fascinating, and I get more out of it now as an adult watching it than I did as a kid. And and also the world is is complete. Like that world is so complete, just the visual world is so complete, even the mistakes or or what would be considered a mistake actually work, you know? You know, there's always I think there's always uh some difficulty with emotions with puppets, maybe. And and I think and well get in I'll get into that, but no, I I still love this film. Yeah. And I recently watched the prequel TV show, which unfortunately was cancelled, but which is which made me.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

So Brad, you're in this industry. Did you did you rewatch the movie? I did, as a matter of fact. What what's your take on it?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

You know, everybody brings up some some good points. Like I I I have a a nostalgic love for this from seeing it as a kid because of just the fantasy of it and the build the build of the world was really um transporting uh to me, and it it stays that way. And I I will say that the movie feels a little pacey at this point. It maybe is a little slow when it could be moving faster, but I maybe that's more of um of just what modern filmmaking seems to be. It's less of a ride and more of a contemplative journey, and it is really that journey, and it is to to to repair this crystal, which will bring balance, and I think that's just such a universal story. When I watch it now, however, I can't see the movie anymore. I see through it to the craft that put it together, and that's a big problem that I have in general. Like my wife loves it when I point out continuity errors, but it was so so well made without leaning into CG or without uh it was groundbreaking for its puppetry and the design of it. I mean, when you get into Agra's world and you see that um, what's the name of those things where where you've got all the planets spinning around? I'm blanking, but like the solar system thing?

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Oh, that was.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah, that that huge model that's built practically and then they destroy it, and it's like, oh my god, like I wish I want that in my house. I don't have a big enough house. But just the way her eyeball worked, the the craft of that film is just art, every frame. And the puppetry of it is also amazing because, like, there's one scene where we have our main little golfing guy, and he runs it by he's gonna come forward in the frame by running through the background and then running through the mid ground and then running into the foreground again. And you know, I I what I saw was a suit performer in the deep background running across the background, and then a medium-sized puppet coming across the mid the midground, and then you've got you know the smaller puppet coming in in front of frame, and just figuring it that out, the mental gymnastics that it takes to figure out how to achieve that shot in camera, is is staggering. The the characters that are on stilts, those big weird spider-y things that are running around, you know, their legs aren't completely touching the ground and they're not absolutely motivating them, but I still think as puppets and as creatures, they're scary and they work. So it's for for the technology of the time, you you mentioned the the prequel TV show stories where they did so much CG integration. I love the craft of this movie, and I guess I maybe can't even pay attention to the story anymore because every frame is just multiple works of art being displayed in front of me. And that's I think one of the things that I still love about Labyrinth or Labyrinth, Dark Crystal. We'll talk about Labyrinth and last year.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

But that's that is that's that's funny. That's uh that's an issue with with um like I'm I'm in marketing advert I've been in advertising all my life, and I can't watch a commercial without analyzing it and like trying to figure out what what the consumer insight and what what what they're trying to change. You know, it's the same thing. It's when you're in when you're in the business, you can't just see it for what it is anymore, can you?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

No. The fun thing about this pod is we've had a couple of guests like yourself, we've had an editor and a stunt double and a stunt coordinator on, and we're we're learning more about what goes into movies and looking at the craft behind it, and it's kind of cool. And definitely the craft was there. My notes on this, my my overall summary. That's a whole lot of puppets. That was my summary. And and and I also said uh feels like Lord of the Rings meets Dune meets the Muppet Show. That was my analysis. You know, I'll be honest, I found it a little slow. I have no idea. I'm happy to have Anthony back on the pod here because I wanted to say, Anthony, what did you think of this? And do you think this is actually a kids' movie or a family movie?

SPEAKER_04 10:12

My well, I was watching it uh right when we put my daughter to bed, so she obviously came out a few times to take a look, and apparently she told mom that she was very scared of the show. So it's not for little kids, I don't think. For an hour and a half movie, it did feel very drawn out and slow. And I I don't know if it was just the writing or me personally, but I was just totally enthralled with the puppetry and just watching it all and how it all kind of blended together. I was just awestruck.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

An awesome experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I have a question for our non-gen Xers. With Jen and Kira specifically, right? The our Gelflings, did you find that they kind of their faces fell into this uncanny valley of like a little too real but not real enough? Like, where do you think where because that's one of the questions I've always had it as a kid? No question, no problem, they were alive. But as an adult, when I watch it again, I'm like, uh, the faces don't really move. Maybe like a face could.

SPEAKER_04 11:17

Yeah, it was a little bit creepy. Yeah, a little bland. I don't know. I f I felt like what you're saying, like there wasn't a lot going on. Maybe the eyes moved a little bit, but there wasn't a ton of uh motion.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

I'll tell you, Brad, I flagged that as one of the things that kind of took me out of the movies. I thought all the creatures were great, but then those two characters, their faces were so plastic.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah. Yeah, and I th I had that as part of one of my worst parts as well. Is I think the Gelflings oddly are sort of less interesting than almost everything else on the screen. You know, like Kira has more warmth and agency than Jen does, but both of them are designed to be sympathetic rather than complicated. But if you put them beside the Skexies or the podlings, they can seem oddly bland. And and I think that's what I was talking about with sometimes there's an unavoidable limitation of puppetry, which you can talk to us about. You know, the creatures are astonishing to look at, but the faces cannot always sort of carry subtle emotion, and I think with those two, you just didn't get that.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

But but a mouth that doesn't move also I find jarring. Like if you just give me a puppet that just it doesn't even have to have an articulate mouth, just it moves a little.

unknown 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

A mouth that doesn't move is always a little bit creepy.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

I love how aspirational this film is. You know, this was at a time, and I I I think I'm getting this right. That the Jim Henson and the Muppet Show itself was like that Muppet Show was the highest-rated television show at the time for CBS, right? It was a monster hit. Everybody tuned in on whatever night it was on, got the family together with their TV dinners, and they watched the Muppet Show. And they got the biggest stars. Yeah, and week after week they were rewarded with huge guest stars and really funny innovative content. And Jim Henson, and I don't know if you've seen the the latest documentary that Ron Howard did. If you haven't, I really recommend it. He was always working on the next four things. He was always striving to do the next and make it bigger and make it better. And so what I love about the Dark Crystal now is that yes, it's absolutely pacey. And I completely agree. I mean, I brought it up, the the sort of uncanny valley of the Gelflings, but they reached, and it's so aspirational to try to do what this was and not care about finding the money or how much it's gonna cost. It's just like and and also not bothered that he tore down the the the biggest hit TV show that had been on in a very long time to do this because it was just time to do something crazy and big, and and that's one of the things I I forgive it all of its faults, you know. Also, as far as the pace of this movie goes, I have to say I'm gonna I'm gonna be I guess I'm here I am defending this movie forever now, so I guess we're fighting. Um the the the the pace of this movie is no different than Blade Runner, you know, and if you watch that now, it's it's slow, that's fair, and it's it's it's a product of its time. Like Blade Runner is what, 1984? I think it's around the same time. So this is this is filmmaking at the time, and they took time to breathe in movies that maybe we don't now because it just you can pack one more scene, and if you cut this down a little bit, and I mean I you know, I I'm I'm on the inside of Avatar Way of the Water, or I'm sorry, uh Fire and Ash. I I was lucky enough to do both of those sequels. And I I came out of Fire and Ash thinking, like, is that a movie or is that a ride? I mean, I think I liked it in either in either sense, but like, holy crap, that's a tight two hours and 77 minutes when you think about just how much time you're in the theater, but it's always moving, and it you just you don't feel slow, or at least I didn't. With Dark Crystal, it's definitely has that pace to it, but that may also just be part of the language of filmmaking back then is you really let your worlds breathe and you let your characters have moments, you you show the the shoe leather, you just let them walk, you know, like that shot I was talking about, coming from the background to the midground to the foreground, then the scene starts. Like nowadays, you just you wouldn't do that because it the story isn't about getting to your mark. The story is what do you say when you're there? And we just have a different film grammar now, what 40 some years later than than we did back then.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Yeah, yeah, it's a good point, and it was definitely beautiful set pieces, and uh, I agree it's it's kind of what movies did in the times they took their time telling a story.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

So for sure, and where maybe where the gulflings fail a little bit in being real, like Agra, I mean, she's amazing and every bit as real as Yoda was for me when I was a kid, right? And and and she's just brilliant as a character, like you don't think at all of her as a puppet ever. Whereas maybe once in a while with the gulflings, they pull you out, and then the little podlings, they're so cute, especially when you drain all their life essence, they sure walk like a whole raisin. But great effects there as well, so much in camera. It's so I I I guess I kind of forgive it some of the some of its its failings in perfect puppetry and perfect character realization. Like, you know, was that sword as it was chopping at that stone actually chipping anything off of it? Well, not really, you know. But did I mind when I was a kid?

unknown 16:55

Heck no.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

I I agree to it to a degree too, because like I personally I didn't really care about the Gelfling. I was so interested in all the other characters. I think they did such a good job with them, with the visuals and even some of the story that I just even at the evil vulture demons, like I just was wanted to see more. I don't they became like a background to me, the Gelfling.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

What you're experiencing, Anthony, is is you know, I think some of these like small weaknesses are are are really inverse to the the entire film's strengths, and I think it was you know, they did such a good job, they were so committed to building this world that for some people character and narrat narrative can be secondary and they can still love it, right? Like like you are, yeah. Because it's so cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

Very rare that I get lost in a world in a movie, and this was one of those. I will say too, like, just to touch on what you're saying, I feel like practical effects needs to make like a comeback. Totally. Like CG, CG has just gone so in the wrong direction. Like, obviously, you can do really cool things with CG, but like it it's just always better when you do like a practical thing, and I know that's probably more maybe you can touch on this, like more money or more set design and more technicality to it, but it just looks cooler, it's better for world building and stuff like that, and I like that part of the film for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I think the the the prequel movies that came out, which and and they had beautiful design and they had you know all the most talented people, a lot of whom are my friends, so I'm gonna be very careful here. Um but I I was disappointed when the CG integration came into the puppetry because it's so impressive to see it in camera. And and and I understand I have a weird lens and a filter on all this stuff because I pull it apart as I watch it, and I wish I couldn't. I wish I didn't, but that's just how it works for me now. And and I wasn't as impressed pulling that stuff apart. Some moments were brilliant, right? But when when it when they leaned into CG too much, I was like, uh, okay. It would have been cool to see this solved in a different way for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

I yeah, I s I still like the show though, and and you know, the prequel of showing the the Holocaust of the Gulflings, if you will. I I don't know if that's the right word. It's a good title. I really liked watching that. I I like that prequel, and I was really disappointed that they just didn't continue on. I don't know why they cancelled it. I was I was into it.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

I I didn't uh I didn't know that gulflings were Jewish, I didn't pick up on that. That was a detail that eluded me.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I think Gulfling Holocaust is actually like a isn't it like a a Finnish metal band or something?

SPEAKER_03 19:47

It sounds like a finished metal band, doesn't it? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

I said I question for you, Brad. Yeah, like when you watch these movies, is it is it different to experience it? I mean, obviously a little bit, but when you're watching it post-production or in the scene, is it totally different or is it pretty close to it?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Oh, like if you're on if you're if you're on stage watching this stuff?

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Yeah, like if you're on yeah, on the show.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Well, usually there's a level of hoping that your props don't break when I'm on stage watching stuff like this. So that I, you know, you're you're very much, I mean, it is a job. It's it's you're hardly a spectator, but there are many moments where you're just watching the puppeteers create something just really beautiful. And maybe I have a lot more experience with the Muppets. My first job in town was uh in 1995, uh, unless I was actually passing through town, but I heard there was gonna be a new Muppet show, and I'm like, oh, I'll just go get a job on that. And that worked out. So I've been with the Muppets on and off for 30 years-ish. And I find that when you can bring an inanimate puppet to life and give it a soul and give it character and and and have it. I've seen Kermit on the log playing the banjo and doing Rainbow Connection more than once, and I think maybe three times at this point. And whenever that's happened, like the whole crew, from the accounting department to you know the caterers, they stay late, they come and they watch. And I don't watch the frog on the log as much as I like to watch the people watching that happen. Because, you know, for me, I'm still in the technical and hoping that the banjo doesn't break, and you know, all the rest of that stuff is always in my mind. But watching people crying as they're having this experience, like that's one of the real beautiful things about puppetry for me that I didn't really think about going into it. But the fact that you can emotionally connect in such a major way to a frog made out of flea. And ping pong balls. They're not actually ping pong balls. They were ping pong foot. But that's the beauty of what puppetry does, is I think it's a little disarming and it takes it takes your your your fences and defenses down a little bit because it's like, oh, it's really cute. And then the soul comes out and it and it can be really powerful because it's disarmed you a little bit from from your shields to that kind of experience. And I think the Dark Crystal where it didn't hit every time, it still gets there in a lot of in a lot of ways. Like those old those old hunched over dudes, the aesthetic, what are they called? I can't remember the name of the characters, but they're magical and they have such a great culture and they're and they're you know drawing all their sand drawings and they're just they've got art and they're quiet and contemplative. Like I miss that they're gone at the end of the movie because they have to fuse with the Skexies, who are these you know murder vultures who are completely opposite. But you we have to have the balance, you have to have that combination because that's what the movie's about. It's taking you know the left and the right and actually creating something new. And I think I was actually really surprised, and brought this up earlier, at how how much those themes are very relevant in today's world, how you just have such polarization and it's so entrenched, and it's uh it's it's it's interesting that 40 years later these are themes that are still completely resonating resonating with me.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah. A lot of a lot of these podcasts we do after we're done the discussion, I feel like watching the movie again and often change my mind about the movie during the conversations. Just a quick side question here. Did you ever get to meet Jim Henson? No, I'm really sad.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I uh he died I think two or three years before I came to the company. So they had just finished what had they just done? I think they'd finished Muppet Christmas Carol, because that was Brian Henson's first movie. I came in like four years after he had passed away, so the company was still honestly reeling a little bit. Everybody had their jobs and they kept doing them, and they were trying to figure out how to put the soul back into it, and they were really afraid of Kermit at this point. I I think personally. Um, one of the greatest compliments, my now good friend Dave Goles, who's a puppeteer, uh, one of the originals, he does Gonzo and Bunsen Honey Dew, and a bunch of other characters. He was just he told me once that he was like, Oh Brad, you know, it you would have just he just would have loved you. And I was that was one of the best compliments I've ever had in my life, is hearing that from Dave. So no, I didn't I didn't meet him, but I I I uh I feel like I would have fit in just just right with his vibe, you know. So what's what's a puppet you worked on that uh like a puppet that I performed?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Well, um gosh, I think I did some as far as Muppets go, there it's like tiny little things in the background. Like I think on on Muppets Tonight, I was a I was a penguin in the background of maybe it was the opening sequence, I can't remember. I did some marionette work for them because the Muppet Workshop is one where the prop people do a little bit more than just the props. We also do puppet stunts, like if we're gonna shoot Gonzo out of a cannon, that usually falls to us. Or um in the uh the Jason Siegel Muppets, um, I had to do this. We had like a couple of funky rigs where Jack Black was gonna come out of a trailer and in like a motion capture suit that was really cartoonish, and Miss Piggy was gonna swing in on a line and like pin him to the door with her high heels on either side of his head. And so, like, those are those are rigs. I don't really know if I'm performing at that point, but those are rigs that I I build. And you know, like they waited, they held camera for 45 minutes for me to rig that because I had to run all kinds of lines and wires and pulleys all over the place to make sure that I didn't stab Jack Black in the face with Miss Piggy's high heel shoe, which would have been an awkward moment. That would have been a as far as like straight puppeteering, the stuff I actually get residuals for. I I am very proud to have puppeteered. I did the third season of Arrested Development. You guys know that show at all? Oh yeah, yeah. Okay, so at the end of the third season, Buster ends up in the water after falling off the Queen Mary, and he's in the water, and his nemesis, the loose seal with the yellow bow tie, pops up and confronts him. And so that was me in that puppet in scuba gear underwater with that thing on my hand. I had no idea where my eyeline was, but that's that's that's a moment, for example. The most recent stuff I've done was a lot of electromechanical puppeteer uh puppeteering, which is a fancy way of saying driving droids in the Kenobi mini-series, the Overwall Kenobi show. Driving droids in crowds, especially around stormtroopers, is really tricky because they really can't see anything out of those helmets. And all the background and all the extras that we have, they just assume that the droids are real and that there's nobody actually driving them. So you've got to be up on high ladders so you can actually see down to the droid and always know where it is because uh those are two units have really sharp corners and they love to fall over, so you don't want to hit anybody. One of maybe my proudest moments on that show is the mouse droid. Do you guys remember the mouse droid in um Star Wars and New Hope? They're bringing Chewbacca to the detention center, right? He's got the things, and there's that little remote control car droid that runs. The little square guy. Yeah, and he yells at it and it like does a Y-turn and it runs away. I got to to drive one of those in a in a battle scene, which was super fun, and even suggested to the director that our main character shoots it, and then it survives the blast and turns around and screams off in the other direction. And those are really fun moments for me. I really like driving droids. That's it, that's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

You you have such a great job. You must just be so happy with your career.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Sometimes, you know, this is there's a lot of glamour in the film and TV business, and all these stories sound really great, but they also come at a cost. Like anybody who's thinking about getting into this should know that like this all sounds amazing when you're in your 20s, but when you get, you know, when you have kids and you're you this is your 14th hour on set, and you know that you haven't seen your youngest in like three days, even though you're living in the same house, it's uh there's a there's a cost to that. And though and the travel that we, you know, I used to go all over the world for movies, especially when I was doing more assisting work for Doug Harlocker, or uh that's where Batman versus Superman came up.

unknown 28:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

And you know, those are great movies. Everybody's like, Oh, you got to work on Batman versus Superman, and they don't realize, like, yeah, you remember all those night scenes? That's us at night for months, you know, being ghosts in our own worlds, because you go to work about an hour before the sun's gonna go down and you shoot because that's what Batman is. He's not out there at noon rarely. And it's very hard to simulate night. So, and even doing those overnights is not good for your brain. Like, you know, there's a lot of this industry where you start a Monday morning 6 a.m. call, and if you're doing long days, you know, because we we are our union, thank goodness, uh, protects our ability to sleep, which means we have to have at least 10 hours between when we leave work and when we come back. And yeah, that's a that's a huge amount of life that you get to live in those 10 hours, and that includes your commute, by the way. So by the end of the week, you can we can be doing what we call Friday days all the time, which is the Friday call is 11 o'clock or noon, just because we've had to protect those 10 hours. And for the actors, it's 12. That you know, you're you're eating into your your Saturday, and then all of a sudden you've become nocturnal over the week, and you have to rip that schedule back to a 6 a.m. call on Monday. And you know, overnights losing sleep is as as bad for your brain as like a bad hangover. It it's literally not good for your body. So there's there is a real cost to these long hours and to these um very glamorous and fun to tell stories about movies and TV shows that I've been on. Uh, it's not for everybody. And I guess if I look back at my career and was talking to that, you know, 25-year-old who was passing through Los Angeles and wanted to get a job on the Muppet Show, I'd say, yeah, no, it'll be worth it for you. But it isn't for everybody, you know. Not everybody. I've had way more than my fair share of amazing projects to work on. And your favorite ones oh, favorite thing I've ever done? Yeah. Has to ah gosh, that's a tough one, but I think it's gonna be the the Obi-Wan Kenobi miniseries. I'm a huge Star Wars fan. Like I was in the theater, I think I was six when the you know, when the Star Destroyer comes overhead in Star Wars and New Hope, and I was just a changed person. And I was I was up for the Mandalorian, which is a you know, obviously a huge Star Wars franchise. Grogu exactly, but I was busy on the Avatar sequels at the time, and I couldn't leave to go do it. And I literally, like, literally was crying when I had to turn that job down. But when the Kenobi series came along, I realized like, oh yeah, this is the right one for me because I got to give Darth Vader his lightsaber. Oh I got to give Ewan McGregor the only lightsaber he's ever used that actually lit up. That's so cool. Uh he was like a kid in the candy store with that kind of a thing. And just touching those characters and being able to draw some threads in that in that franchise was a real gift for me. So definitely favorite job, Obi-Wan Kenobi.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

I was up for a much more successful movie podcast, but I already s accepted this one, and I was I was crying. Just tears flowing. Oh, yeah, but happy to be here otherwise.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Hey Olin, this this all this reminds me, I actually I met Cheryl, I think her name was Henson, in in Moscow in the early 90s. Yeah, the early collapse after the Soviet Union. I was there. I opened an ad agency, and um she was talking to us. She was bringing like Sesame Street into Russia and and like sort of starting to ramp that up. That's why she was there. So that was kind of a cool little meet. Who who is your favorite Muppet? My favorite Muppet ever since I was a kid was what was his name? Rolf, the the one that plays the Rolf, yeah. I loved Rolf so much.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

That's kind of that's Jim's first like real character. And I like everybody thinks that you know Kermit's the alter ego, but I actually and they're they're probably right, but I also think that Rolf is there because Rolf is like the soul, he's the wise one at the piano, and he's so thoughtful, and I've always loved Rolf. I think I've always found comfort in Rolf, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:20

It's um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I'm a Waldorf and Statler guy because I you know you've turned into Waldorf. I resonate with them, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Can you tell them apart? Do you know which one is Waldorf and which one is Statler? This is the $10 question. I cannot. All right, here's you'll you'll never you'll you'll never get it wrong again. Is Statler the one with the bigger nose? They're a symbiote. Well, uh, Waldorf has a wider head. Just rem just know that. Like Waldorf is wider, and Statler's the other one. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

So I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

My favorite is always Gonzo, and I have to say that not just because of my relationship with Dave Goles, but I think what Gonzo does for the world and for, and this is feedback that I've heard from Dave that people have come up to him and and said, you know what? I love Gonzo because he gives me permission to be me without having to define myself as anything, because Gonzo, up until the the movie Muppets from Space was always a whatever, you know. I think somebody called him a cross between a mosquito and a chicken, but it didn't matter. And I love that that he has given people in this world permission to just be who they are and not try to figure it out past that. And so I that's that's that's why Gonzo is gonna always be my favorite because he's just weird and unapologetically weird, and and I think there's something really special about that. Awesome, good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

I'm gonna transition us back to the format, get us through some of these categories. Before I get to best parts, I just had one question on the list I need to ask. Brad, I'm just curious what happens on a production like this to all the costumes, all the puppets when you're done, do they just want a big warehouse? Because there's so many cool things there, and I kept thinking some like you would want any of them for your collection, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Oh my goodness, yeah. And I would start with Agra's Ori, or I mean, to actually get a screen used shard would be huge. I mean, I'm a I'm a bit of a prop collector's surprise. Um and all of that stuff is golden. And it's it depends on the uh for this time period, right? What likely happened at the end of this was the puppets were all stuffed in boxes and just started to rot. Because foam latex is not an archival material. It's if you've ever opened up your couch cushions and you see that sort of yellow and they're kind of crumbly if it's an old couch, like that's just how foam behaves as it's as it oxidizes, it just crumbles. So most of this stuff will have been lost to time at this point. But also the mindset back then, especially in the 80s, like was just we we made the movie, we we don't need it anymore. Like there's no there's no reason to keep it because we took the picture of it. So yeah, you guys want that thing? Go ahead, whatever, take it. Or some of it gets binned. That was back then. Now things are a little more archival, and like I did the last big movies I worked on, you know, Netflix wanted uh X number of stuff, and when we knew we weren't going to be doing any more of these films, they wanted the storage space more than they wanted the props. So we did a dead rap, and a lot of the stuff just gets shredded, and it's too bad because it's all works of art, you know, and they they have like bonded companies that have proof of destroying these things because the secondary market out there is so huge. So I don't know if you know the story of Princess Leia's dress. There was it one dress that was saved because somebody pulled it out of a trash can in London and took it home and used it at a costume party for something, and then there was wine spilled on it, and it got just shoved in a box without being cleaned and left in an attic for 40 years. And then that was found, and that dress came back out and was professionally cleaned and was restored. The little moth holes and tears in it were all fixed, and it goes for uh, you know, to auction. I don't know what prop store got for it, but it's you know, a lot of money because there are people that that have these emotional attachments to these films and these TV shows, and they want a piece because it's uh because it's special.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

There's a lot of a lot of nerds with money these days, and that's why props and comic books and all that stuff are are so so popular.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah. Yeah, it's too bad because it's all this brilliant art. In the case of the puppets, you know, unless you go to great lengths to just remove all the oxygen from around them, like you know, literally encase them in a nitrogen environment or something like that, they're just never gonna last. But the props could have lasted, but where are you gonna keep them? Like August War.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

Obviously, Brad behind you on your wall.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Well, there's some, yeah, I've got a few. There's some in front of me, too. This room is where do you live, Brad?

SPEAKER_03 38:19

Where are you sitting?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

I am in North Hills of Los Angeles, so I'm in Northridge. Um, which is uh, if you if you want to try to buy a house in Los Angeles, good luck. You're gonna have to go to the North Hills.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Dude, we live. I live in Vancouver, it's the same. Oh, yeah. I love Vancouver. Yeah, it's a good town.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

But by the way, on the costumes a piece of trivia for you, Brad. Nine tons of rubber were used on the film.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Nine tons? Yeah. Nine tons of rubber. Wow. And you know, you're talking about the puppet that is that performer, but they probably have at least three different variations of each puppet, full body puppets. There were probably some animatronic puppets that had fully remote control heads for when you have to see full bodies. And, you know, that's that's the puppet craft of it that I still love and I love watching. And I especially love this in this last watch through where I still couldn't figure out how they did some of the stuff. And that's the best part, is that they they put so much magic in that somebody like me who's trained to do this and has been around it for a long time still can't figure it out. And that's that's where I just I take my hat off and I bow to those to those geniuses that came before.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

So, guys, what do you think? I was thinking of just blasting through to the rankings now instead of stopping at the categories on the way, unless you guys have anything you want to highlight. I've just got two things I want to say before we get on to that.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

But best line questions, questions, too many questions.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

No, that's great. So, are you guys ready to hear how this movie did? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, let's get into it. So, according to box office mojo worldwide, the dark crystal was the 16th biggest earner at the box office in 1982. Wow. E.T., another puppet, was the biggest earner at the box office in 1982. And the Dark Crystal was beat by other films like Porky's and First Blood. So the people prefer Porkies to the Dark Crystal.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

So, Brad, did you know that Porkies until recently was the most successful Canadian film ever made?

SPEAKER_01 40:25

25 years it held the record as the most successful Canadian film ever made. No way. What what beat it? What beat it all?

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Like Good Cop Bon Cop or something?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Yeah, that's the one that took it out. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Anyhow, back to the Dark Crystal. So the Dark Crystal, 16th wasn't bad. It beat out a lot of good movies this year. It beat Conan, Tron, and Blade Runner. Really? It surprises me. It beat Blade Runner, yep, at the box office. Don't don't forget that this is like how it did at the box office, not since. So I've got to comment on that in a bit.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

I'll just say right now, I'd much rather watch this movie 10 times before I watch Tron once again. Sorry about that. Wait, hold on.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

You know that Tron Tron is a groundbreaking movie. Tron actually was the first film ever to have a fully CG rendered sequence in it. The recognizers. And yeah, right there. First time ever for a fully rendered CG moment. And Tron was ineligible to win an Oscar for special effects that year because the Academy decided that using computers to create special effects was cheating. Really? So it did not get a special effects nomination. And I mean, think about put that lens on movies now. And like holy wow. Like they just incredible. You know, people hate what they don't understand, I guess, but that's just such a cheat. Tron is, I don't know. It's pacey, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I love Tron, but I understand the millennials. That's one of the ones we did on this. I got a story about when the kids were little and I made them watch Tron and they just were not happy with me. Anyhow. So Chariots of Fire was the Oscar winner this year, and the Dark Crystal got no Oscar nominations. The budget, if this movie cost 15 million to make. Anyone want to guess what it did at the box office?

SPEAKER_03 42:17

25. So 76. 13. Uh so it was number 16, you said?

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

What year?

SPEAKER_01 42:26

1982.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Okay, there's patterns, right? So I'd say about 62. 44 million.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Uh but it is so so this is a a sleeper hit or a cult classic, whatever you want to call it. It's estimated to have done 250 million lifetime. No way. Yep. So it's and and by the way, 44 on 15 is not bad. That's a 3X, right? Somebody's making money. Yeah. This was the highest grossing release of 1983 in France and Japan. So the French love puppets. So, Brad, we like to play the Rotten Tomatoes game on this, so nobody researches the movies ahead of time. They just watch them and then we talk about them. And you're familiar with the Rotten Tomatoes scale, right? I I am. Okay, so do you know the scores off the top of your head? No. Can't even go. You get to play. You get to play. All right. So you guys can guess, critics and audience, what do you think the Dark Crystal got? Everybody separate scores? Yes. Critic score and audience score. They're both separate out of a hundred.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

I'm going to give critics 92 and audience 73 and a half.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Kind of similar. I think uh critics 84, audience 78.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

Go ahead, Matthew. I'm gonna go last. So because I'm married to a geek who plays Dungeons and Dragons and Dark Crystal is one of his all time favorite movies, I understand the pure geekdom of sci fi and fantasy. So I'm gonna assume that more people went in to give it a review. Who loved it then didn't, so I'm gonna give it like 90 for crit for audience and 75 for critics. Matthew always has to do them backwards.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

No, I like that it's inverted. Will critics and audience, can you keep track of which is first out of that long list?

SPEAKER_04 44:15

Critics, I'm gonna go 69 audience 85.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Wow, this is super interesting. So obviously, low score wins. First of all, critics 78, audience 81. Oh. And I was surprised that it was that high, to be honest. So, Brad, you got a 21. Will you got a 13, Matthew a 12, and Anthony, you win this week with a nine. Wow. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

Tony, Tony, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

So just a couple of quick trivia facts for you guys. So Jim Hansen's plan was to get back to the darkness of the original Brothers Grim fairy tales. He felt that children liked the idea of being scared and that this was a healthy emotion for them.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

This was the first live-action film without human actors.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

This movie was banned in several Muslim countries due to content that was deemed sacrilegious.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

It was the vultures, wasn't it? They hate they hate puppets, apparently.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Yeah, what is sacrilegious about I I mean, what is religious about I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

I I got no idea. People, right? And Brad, you would know this, but not everybody does. Every blink, eye movement, lip curl, facial expression had to be physically operated by puppeteers and technicians. David Bowie was a huge fan of this movie.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Wow. Yeah, and you know, it's it's worth saying, just as a nice nod to the puppeteers, who really did a genius job. Not it's not one puppeteer for one character. In fact, in in almost every case, you have more than one puppeteer operating these characters all in conjunction. It's sometimes three if there's an electromechanical blink or something like that, if it's not up in the head. And so all three of these people, or two of these people, certainly, because you've got one hand up in the mouth, and you've got the other hand, you're you're most puppeteers are right-handed, so that's where the the dominant hand goes. And then the the offhand, the left hand goes into the character's left hand or controls it with a rod or whatever it is. And so to get the right hand to come to life, you need another puppeteer. And sometimes if there's a tail or something else, like if it's not just a human-like character, you need a third puppeteer. And they're all doing this beautiful dance as they perform this character, staring at monitors, not worrying about where they are, they're just moving. And when you get to see this in person, it's like ballet. It's amazing how you can pack all these puppeteers into a tiny little space and they still find room for each other and find find a way to bring these inanimate objects to life. And it's it's really a magical thing when it works really well.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

So is it fair to say you got off easy being a penguin? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

I didn't know what I was doing. Like these guys are genius. Like, I'll drive a droid around or something like that, or you know, get in scuba gear and get under a seal. But um, you know, to really emote and to to be at the level where a puppet can make someone feel in a very big way is brilliant. And if I can assist with, especially with Muppets, if I can assist in any way with a little gag like scooter breathing into a paper bag, and the paper bag inflates and deflates along with the puppeteer to give them breath, like that just helps that performance. But the performance is always these really talented and and brilliant world-class puppeteers that I am consistently in awe of.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Okay, so then next category, woker joke. Did you guys so Brad, this is just anything that doesn't particularly age well from the era? Anyone find anything? I got one. I think it's hard when I tell puppets. Okay, we'll see if you like the line. So woker joke, I said slaves, little tiny bald slaves.

SPEAKER_04 48:01

I think that doesn't ex- I wasn't expecting that. I kind of came out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

What was I what was the line when he's like, You have wings? And she's like, Of course I do. He's like, I don't have wings. He's like, Yeah, you're a boy. Of course not. You're a boy. I was like, okay, body shaming. Like, all right.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

I liked it. Actually, it was such an odd scene watching those those little guys strapped into the chair and sucking their essence out. It was a creepy little scene.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah, but it's scary. It gives it weight. I like that about it.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Totally does. Totally does. Okay, so reviews, however, you guys felt about this movie. I promise you there's others who liked it more or less than you. For this movie, there were 91 10-star reviews out of 331 total reviews. So just a couple of quotes from the 10-star reviews. As a kid, it had me enthralled and terrified at the same time. Fair. The lengths Jim and his team went to to create this world were a gift to the planet. Seeing this film on the big screen made me appreciate just how much care, thought, and love Jim Henson poured into his films. And finally, what modern cinema really needs is more puppets and less humans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:10

Less Marvel action films, CGI slop, more than practical puppeteering.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

I'm so tired of all that stuff, too. Okay, well, let's hear from people who liked it less for this movie. There were only five people who gave it a one-star review compared to 91 10-star reviews. So not many, many haters. And they said, couple of quotes. I have absolutely no idea what I just watched. It's like watching someone else's fever dream. It's kind of true. And this description of the movie 95 minutes of weird birds yelling at each other.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

That's good. I brought that all.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

And the last one, everyone looks like they're one bad day away from tax fraud. Hey, I don't know what that means. Okay. Siskel and Ebert, do you guys think there's any chance they liked it?

SPEAKER_03 49:59

I think they both did. I don't know. I think I think one of them would have been the one that down.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

I think both bad. Both didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Well, two thumbs up. They never did formally review it. It was just too early for them, but they did talk about it over the years, comparing it to other puppet movies. So Siskel thought the Dark Crystal was an impressive technical achievement, but one that never became emotionally engaging. He felt the story lacked suspense because the prophecy made the ending feel inevitable. And while he admired the incredible creature designs, he didn't connect with the characters.

SPEAKER_04 50:31

You know what? I generally don't agree with those guys, but that summed up my take pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Okay. But prophecies are inevitable. Ebert thought Jim Henson's imagination and craftsmanship deserved admiration, but also felt the film fell short as a story. He appreciated the originality of the fantasy world and the artistry behind the puppetry, yet believed the emotional core was missing. And funny enough, Ebert described the never ending story as a better type of film that was similar. Interesting. Well, I think what the never ending story does is it's a little bit more upbeat, right? And it mixes humans and puppets. I I did have a question as to whether having you know any humans at all in this would have would have made it a little bit more interesting.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

No, I think it was good in its own world.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Okay. Yeah, I think as soon as you put a human in it, it breaks it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Unless it was David Bowie.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

So sequel or remake, I know there were sequels, and I'd love to hear from uh Matthew and Brad who have seen them, whether they're any good. Or not sequels, uh prequels, I guess. But would you guys like to see more from these characters?

SPEAKER_03 51:44

I wish they kept going with the prequel. I was enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Brad, what did you think? I would love for them to make more because I'd like to work on them. I I you know, just to be pro i my my whole job here is like you know, I I all the time I I'm building something or bringing something to set and somebody questions it, and I just hold up my hands and I'm like, look, I didn't write it. You know what I love is the craft, is the is the get to envision something that nobody's ever made, reimagine it for the world that it's in, and get to participate in that. Like that's that's the gift of my job at this point in my career is getting to work with illustrators and fabricators and building things that are gorgeous and really fun to touch. And you bring it out to set and it's on the cart, and all the crew knows they're not supposed to touch your stuff, and some of them just can't help themselves. And you know you've done a really cool prop if somebody who knows better picks it up. And I think if they could do more dark crystals, I would be so honored if I got to participate in the craft. Um, regardless of what the story is. The experience for me would be not so much the destination but the journey, if that makes sense. So that's my that's my perspective, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 53:03

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Totally, totally. Anthony, what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Oh, I would like to see a prequel worth like the geffling skexis kind of you can, dude.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

You can congratulations prime or Netflix.

SPEAKER_04 53:15

Oh, there's a thing. Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

Yeah, yeah. You can watch it.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Yep. Oh, my lucky day. Okay. I'd like I'd like a remake, but or even just a whole new story, to be honest. I would like a movie that's all puppets, but no none of the skexis story. I didn't care for the story, to be honest. Yeah, but but I loved the practicality of it all.

SPEAKER_03 53:39

Genocide, not a holocaust. I meant to say genocide earlier. Uh there you go.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Cancelled. Clip it. Woker joke, Matthew. Okay, well, we are at the end of the pod, so now you guys gotta give it your official rating. Is this movie too old or pure gold?

SPEAKER_04 53:53

I'm gonna say right down the middle. It's a little old, but it's a little gold. It's uh it's got a little something for everybody, maybe. I think it is it is groundbreaking, and for that reason it's pure gold, and I can't wait for my kid to be scared watching it with me one day.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Cool. I actually wrote a little bit here. I wrote it trusts children with difficult ideas, mortality, ecological collapse, corruption, sacrifice, damage of imbalance. It's strange, beautiful, grotesque, and sincere, but that sincere and sincerity is why it lasts. It doesn't look like anything else, sound like anything else, or think like anything else. So I said it's pure gold in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give it pure gold, not simply because of the craft of the film, but because it's a 40-year-old plus movie that's themes are so incredibly relevant today with our current global situation and domestic situation, that if you can find something that's that universal and that unique in its storytelling and it resonates for decades into the future, then you've you know, regardless as to whether it's Pacy or the puppets move quite right, or you know, all of the rest of it, maybe the ending is inevitable. That all goes away for me when I find that the themes in the stories are still relevant and hopefully, well, and probably unfortunately will still be relevant uh for decades to come.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

You know, so for me, I totally appreciate the craftsmanship, and I gotta say, I really admire Jim Henson. Like he could have he could have just banked on the Muppet Show for the rest of his life, but he wanted to try something different, and I I totally admire anybody that takes a big swing. I think it's a very interesting movie, so I'm I'm gonna give it a gold because I think people should look back, and it's an interesting movie. But uh, I will caution people do not watch it when you're tired, either be altered or wide awake when you watch it. That is my advice. I love it. Okay, that that's the end. Brad, uh, we totally appreciate you coming on. It was so interesting to hear about your career.

SPEAKER_04 56:02

Yeah, so cool to hear about the industry and uh your uh your profession.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

That was an absolute pleasure. Hopefully, we get to do this again. If you ever, you know, need some idiot to just blather on, please let me know.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

I would we got four of them already. Yeah, we got some here.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

Okay. Can I can I just say one small thing? Last year, with all this stuff that was going on in life, so Brad, I just got through cancer and everything, and all the terrible news that was happening, my husband and I discovered the Muppet Show, I think, on Prime or Netflix. And just at the end of the day, the last thing we watched was just one Muppet show, like the originals, because it just made everything feel so much better.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

My yeah. My favorite episode from when I was a kid was the Elton John episode. Oh, so good. To to watch all those Muppets playing along and singing along with Elton John in his phase when he had the big glasses and the stupid clothes, it was really, really something. Yeah, Muppet Show was quite a show.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

I have to um I I want to drive everybody to watch season three. The Chris Christofferson was the was the guest, and there is a moment where it's just it's just Floyd and uh who's who's puppeteered and by Jerry Nelson, who's no longer with us, and it's Rolf at the piano, and they do a New York state of mind. And you can go look this up. It it is great song. It is the absolute best performance of that song I have ever seen. It's not funny, it's just soulful. It doesn't include the guest star, it's just a beautiful moment between Jerry Nelson and Jim Henson at a piano as as Floyd and Floyd Peppers and Rolf the Dog. And I gotta tell you, like, every time it just I get misty because I'm gonna literally go watch that. Power in puppetry. And if you can believe a character like Agra or Jen or any of the any of the characters that come to life in Crystal, or if you can believe that Yoda is really there and Dagaba talking to Luke in the hut, like it there's a magic transformation that happens when you just watch the content and you don't and you don't worry about the process. And I think that Dark Crystal gets there, and I think the Muppets have gotten there so many times, and will again and again, I hope. So I don't know. I'm I'm a puppet geek forever, and uh and a and just a big fan. And I think what you guys are doing is really fun. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Thanks for thanks, sir. Yeah, thanks for coming. Okay, thank you so much. This was uh this was a great episode. Love hearing about it.

SPEAKER_03 58:41

We'll have you on again for sure.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

I I would love to do labyrinth, to be honest. I'd love to do labyrinth. I love that with David Boy. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yeah, when that big guy just says smells bad over and over again, it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Okay, well, uh, I'll take you up on that. I will reach out when we do labyrinth.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

All right, okay, thanks guys.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Cheers, guys.

SPEAKER_07 59:36

I will do this.