SPEAKER_00 0:00

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SPEAKER_04 0:11

Hello, friends. I am Cindy Thompson and this is a resilience project. This is a space where stories are shared and possibilities are discovered. I invite you to partner with me in cultivating resilience among humans one conversation at a time. I would like to begin by giving you a heads up that the content of this podcast could be sensitive for some. Frank King, known as the mental health comedian, provides us with a candid and frank, pardon the pun, approach to mental health. He may not be a mental health therapist, but he has a wealth of personal experience living with chronic suicidal ideation and a personal story intended to be a catalyst for hope. What I appreciate about this conversation is the opportunity to validate and name some of the common experiences associated with mood disorders and other mental health challenges. We should be talking about this. And with Frank's help, we have a chance to grow a community of individuals who will no longer be battling this on their own. We are here with you and willing to get into some of the nitty-gritty aspects of this topic. Bringing a unique and humorous perspective on men's mental health, Frank inspires us to look at some of the obstacles associated with depression, for example. As a comedian and advocate for mental wellness, Frank has discovered his purpose and meaning through conversations just like this. In this conversation, Frank gives us a sample of car metaphors coming from the book that he co-authored titled Guts, Grit, Grind, Mental Health, Mental Mechanics. We are talking about toxic masculinity, suicide, and the value of having a pit crew. Frank has a way of highlighting the challenges while also providing a roadmap for resilience. If you or a loved one struggle with depression, I hope that you will find this episode to be a strong addition to your resilience manual. So, Frank, thanks so much for joining me today on a resilience project.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

So you are coming to us from Oregon.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Correct. Just outside of Eugene.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

Awesome. Well, I love that we got connected because I was checking out a little bit online your book that you participated in writing, The Guts, Grit, and Grind Mental Health Mechanics Manual. I love it. I was looking at some of the headings. And as we jump in today, I wonder if you could help us understand how to help men reach out if they are struggling with mental health issues. You have a great sense of humor. You have a great way of approaching it and maybe lightening things up a little bit. So I'm wondering from the writing you've done and the speaking you've done, what tips would you have for men listening to this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Well, eight out of ten suicides in the US, anyway, at this point are men, uh generally 45 to 54, in part because men tend not to reach out for help, whether it's uh physical uh or mental. I've got friends who died of prostate and colon cancer needlessly, but I would wager they didn't get a PSA test for the prostate or have a colonoscopy because men, you know, men are tough. We just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. Uh, they call it toxic masculinity nowadays. Back when I was a kid in the southeastern United States, they called it Big Boys Don't Cry.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Uh, what they've discovered is actually uh started in Australia. It's called the Shed Project, Shed in Australia's garage. And they found that if you get two guys with their heads under the hood of a car, not looking each other in the eye, they can talk about just about anything. And so that's how the shed project started. I see. And then in the United States, there's a barbershop project. So African Americans for decades, barbershops have been a place of safety. And again, the barbers standing behind you, you're not looking in each other's eyes. So, and they're training barbers in mental health first aid.

SPEAKER_04 4:12

Really?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yes, so they can help their clientele. Love it. And at the VFW Hall, Veterans of Foreign Wars, almost every one of those has uh dart tournaments, dart teams, dart tournaments. And again, if you got a couple of guys staring down the lane at the dart board, not looking each other in the eye and throwing darts, they often can talk about almost anything and things that are important. So I think if we set men up in a situation like that, rather than put them across the table at Starbucks where they're looking each other in the eye, which is something that women seem generally seem to have are comfortable doing. A little easier. Yeah, I've got a friend who's he and his dad go fishing, and they've got one of those boats that uh has a seat on either end is and they're on a swivel. And so they turn away from one another and they're fishing in opposite directions. Again, they can talk about anything. Yeah. So I think that's is a good start. And in our book, uh, the first book, which by the way, on my website, the mental healthcomedian.com, you can put in an email address and get the MP3 download unabridged audio book with me narrating it for free. Talk about how women tend to collect friends over a lifetime, men tend to shed them. Yeah, they're in the Boy Scouts, they're in you know high school sports, they're in college and fraternity, and then maybe rotary after college, you know, one of the communities organizations, but they tend to shed friends over time.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

The circle gets smaller and smaller. I don't know if they're just not as social as women. I don't mean to stereotype, but it just seems these are trends, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

And I myself, I have fewer friends, um, although I have made some adult friends. Uh, and I'm always pleasantly surprised when I've made a new adult male friend. It's almost an outlier. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Fair enough. Well, and I want the listeners to know that you are also speaking from personal experience. I wonder if you would feel comfortable to share some of your journey of mental health issues and how you came to get involved in speaking about it in a way as a comedian.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Oh, yes. Well, I started out as a comedian in fourth grade, told my first joke, everybody laughed, and I thought, I'm gonna be a comedian. 12th grade talent show. Nobody'd ever done stand-up. I did stand up and I won. Um, my mom insisted I go to college before I go pursue my comedy career, which I did. Moved to California, San Diego. There's a comedy store there, open mic night, and that was the beginning. Okay, knew I was home. I became a professional comedian there after Christmas 1985. My lovely wife and I, although she was just my girlfriend at the time, were on the road for 2,629 nights. Oh my nonstop. It was a we had a ball. Oh my lord. Worked with Rosie O'Donnell and Alan DeGeneres and Foxworthy and Dennis Miller, Adam Sandler, back when they were just comics. And then that ended the comedy boom busted, and I did corporate comedy until the last recession in the US, 2007, 8, 9. And after that was over, and after we'd lost everything into chapter 7 bankruptcy, and that's when I learned what the barrel of my gun tasted like. Well, I had a million-dollar life insurance policy, and my wife was devastated by the bankruptcy, and I was in charge of the money. So, you know, it at first glance it was all my fault. And so I thought I could fix this. In suicidality, there's a sense of burdensomeness. The world would be better off without. My wife certainly would have been better off financially. I was working more dead than alive. Fortunately, I didn't pull the trigger. But after the recession, when the meeting planners came back to me, they said, Frank, look, we love you, but we can't pay you that kind of money anymore just to be funny. You need to teach our audience something. And I had no idea. Read a book by a nice lady named Judy Carter, a friend of mine. It's called The Message of You: Turn Your Life into a Money Making Speaking Career. I thought, that's the ticket. So I went into her book thinking I got nothing. About halfway through, she kind of walks you through finding your heart story, she calls it. Halfway through, I thought, oh my God. I thought about my family history of depression and you know, generational depression, thoughts of suicide, my own history. And I thought, you know, if I took some suicide prevention classes, I could tell my story and then I could teach suicide prevention in my keynotes. And my next thought was how am I going to rebrand from a comedian, from as Judy would say, from a funny speaker to a speaker simply funny? And my wife suggested do a TED talk. And I famously said, What's a TED talk? Fortunately, I got an email that week from Vancouver, British Columbia, uh, Vancouver, BC, on the mainland. And they said, Would you we'd like to have you apply to do a TEDx? So I applied and I got it. And I came out on stage at age 58 as depressed and suicidal. Nobody knew. My wife, my family, my friends, nobody really knew. Uh when my wife's getting ready to hit play on the YouTube video when it posted, I said, Wait, before you hit play, I gotta tell you about half a dozen things you don't know that you're about to hear. I didn't want to hear it in the video because you know, people with mental illness oftentimes covered up. Yeah, we're good actors. There's a reason I have a screen actors guild card, I'm a good actor. And that allowed me to rebrand that first TEDx. And my sixth TEDx on mental health goes up this weekend on LinkedIn Live on the 27th. They're all on mental health, one aspect or another.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

But those actually, that first one and those, you know, allowed me to rebrand as from a funny speaker to a speaker who's funny. And I found that because, as you mentioned, men tend not to reach out for help, emotional or physical. I discovered that by going up on stage as a man and a non-clinician and telling my story and getting a little choked up and being vulnerable, for some reason, allows other people, men especially, to give voice to their feelings and experiences surrounding depression, thoughts, and suicide without recrimination. I mean, I've been told by meeting planners months after I've appeared, Frank, you have no idea. I mean, people came into the nurse's office there at the plant and told us they were struggling with, you know, and mentioned your name and this, you know, and and so, and we had no idea until you showed up and started the conversation. We had no idea any of these people had any of these problems. So that's the key, I believe, is although one person in North America dies by suicide every nine minutes, hardly anybody talks about it unless you bring it up, and then everybody's got a story. It's like they've just been waiting for somebody to utter the magic words suppression and suicide, to give voice, to feel like they can say, they can tell their story.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

Absolutely. And that's why I wanted to do this podcast because I feel like in hearing those stories and sharing it with one another, we're reaching out and abridging that ability to connect, to hear how we are getting through these hard times. And you are an example of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, I think a lot of people with mental illness always feel like they're alone. It's just them. I have something called chronic suicidal ideation. And every time I've spoken since 2014, there's been somebody in the audience who has chronic suicidal ideation, but they didn't know it had a name. They just thought they were some kind of freak and completely alone. I tell a story about how chronic suicidal ideation means for people like me in my tribe, the option of suicide is always on the menu as a solution for problems large and small. When I say small, my car broke down a couple years ago. I had three thoughts on a bit get it fixed, buy a new one, just kill myself. So this young woman comes up after my college presentation and said, Thanks for your keynote. I said, You're welcome. She said, But I got to tell you, it made me weep. How did it make you weep? She said, You know your story about the car, get it fixed, buy a new one, or you can just kill yourself. She goes, I've been having those thoughts all my life. I didn't know it had a name. I didn't know it was a thing. I thought I was just some kind of freak and completely alone. And when I heard you say that out loud, I realized for the first time in my life that I'm not alone and I wept. So that's the power of starting the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Yes. Well, and can I circle back? Because I'm curious what your family's response was in hearing your TED talk for the first time and learning that about you, because they are your people. And to learn that for the first time, what was that like for them?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Well, my wife was a bit surprised. Uh I mean, she knew I could get a little moody, especially if I had carbohydrates. About an hour after having a stickers bar, I got a little grumpy. Um, my blood sugar would go up and then come back. So she just figured that was what was happening, you know, on an ongoing basis is I just eat the wrong thing. And, you know, an hour later I was so it was not a complete surprise, but she didn't realize how bad the problem was or how close I came to killing myself. My family, because my grandmother died by suicide, my mother found her, my great aunt died by suicide, my mother and I found her. I was four years old, I screamed for days. And every pretty much everybody in my family is on one psychotropic medication or another. As we say down south, my family is has more nuts in it than a squirrel turd. We're just all wired that way. So they were not surprised that I too was living with my sister who has depression and anxiety, and so does one of my first cousins. Uh, yeah, it's just unfortunately in the DNA. So in my mother's generation, they didn't talk about it. In my generation, my sister's generation, very open about it. And the benefit there is with my nieces and nephews, they have no problem coming forward and saying, Look, I think I'm depressed. There's no stigma attached to having those feelings and can to do something about it. So that's the upside, is everybody in the family is now out about it.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Yes. You're helping that next generation.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yes. And so they don't have to hide it, you know, they don't have to struggle with it.

SPEAKER_04 14:16

So well, and you touched on something in your own personal experience around the anger. And I do notice that a lot in the clients that I've worked with, and I help families understand that for a lot of men, it's almost easier to go to a place of anger than the vulnerability. And so anxiety, depression can be missed because it might just look like a lot of anger and irritability.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yes, oftentimes anger, irritability. I yeah, I think it's because men aren't sure how to process those feelings. And you know, I do get do get a little angry myself. I I've been down that path. And but now that my wife knows what I'm dealing with, and I'm very upfront about when I'm beginning to cycle down. Because what I don't want to happen is her to get blindsided by it or to see me scowling and think she's done something wrong. Because if she knows I'm cycling down and I have a frown on my face, then she knows it's not her, not something she did. Yeah, you know, we can have a little fun with it. One of my triggers is disappointing my wife. So I said to her one day after I did something stupid, are you mad at me? She goes, No, honey, I'm not mad. I'm disappointed. So we can actually laugh about it a bit. So it doesn't make it go away, but it helps take the sting out. And she knows my cycle is about three days. So we all know that 72 hours later, I'll be flying level again, which is valuable. I think the problem for younger people who haven't been through that cycle so many times as I have is people who are depressed often live in the moment. And if you're living in the moment and it feels really bad, you're likely to think it's never going to get any better, so why bother? And I know that my cycle is about three days and 72 hours, it will be better. Yeah, I don't fight depression, I just live with it. As a friend of mine says, you don't ride on a horse, you ride with a horse. So I live with the depression. I just ride it out until it, you know, begins to let up.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

I like that metaphor, actually, because if we're resisting it, you're right, it can feel like there's something wrong with me. But if you just know that the time will pass, you're gonna get through it. It's kind of riding that wave. I also love how you and your wife have created almost a team to help each other through it because I wonder if you also feel supported in knowing that you can share it with her. You're not alone in it, also. So by your wife understanding this is how you're feeling right now, that allows you to have a teammate on your side.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Well, and in our book, which is uh in the guts grit in the grind, all of them look like automobile owner's manuals.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And in it, we talk about having uh a lot of automobile metaphors and a pit crew. You know, if you have a NASCAR car and you're racing and the wheels are about to come off, that's not the time to hire the pit crew. You you have to have them in place before the race starts. And with mental illness, I tell people when they're comfortable, surround themselves with people they know, love, and trust, who understand what they're going through, what they potentially may be going through. So that they'll be there ready to help when the time comes. You know, it's like triple A. When you buy a car, every time I've ever had a car, I've always had a triple A membership because I know sometime, somewhere, probably on a rainy dark night, flat tire, run out of gas, locked keys in the car, something's gonna happen. I'm gonna need help. So that's the idea. That's why the car metaphors is you need to prepare ahead.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

So that you have people who understand and they're not gonna judge, and they're just gonna understand how to help.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

And I think that's a critical piece, letting them know how to help when you are in that space. Because often depression makes you push people away. It's a very isolating experience. You know, they might know how to respond or what you might really need in that moment. You might just need somebody to be beside you on the couch and not just leave you per se.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

My workout partner is also somebody you can be honest with. I've got a funny story about being honest with somebody because every now and then, uh, when somebody asks me how I'm doing, I feel like I'm gonna tell them. So my partner, my workout partner, said, How are you doing? I said, I'm wretchedly depressed. And he simply said, What's that look like? I said, Well, do you remember when you were 18 years old, you know, young man, every other thought was about young women? He goes, Yeah, I do. What's your every other thought about? Going back to bed, pulling the covers over my head and binge watching Netflix. I mean, my bed calls me all day, like, come on, Frank, come on, pull the covers, come on. I've even actually had it so bad that I made the bed and then stood there looking at the bed, and I said to the bed, won't be long, I'll be back.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

Aw, it's like your best friend.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yes. Well, you know, there's a song, Larry, and I can never remember the title of the song or who the artist was, but there's a line in there sleep's the only freedom that she knows. And that's kind of how it is for a lot of people with mental illness. Sleep is the only freedom that you know. You go to bed, you go to sleep. And I've had times when I lie in bed in the morning, you know, and just don't really feel like getting up. But I've got techniques in place. I've got a self-care plan, uh, practice what's called gamification, I've got a routine. And I've taught that on a number of podcasts to neurotypical people who, in the pandemic, were probably suffering from situational depression. And if you've never been depressed before, you would not have a self-care plan in place. So I teach them about my self-care plan, how it works, and about something called gamification and how that works, and then about having a routine, controlling the things you can control is the through line. And let the rest of it go. I said, because you know, people with mental illness wake up every morning in an uncertain world, whether there's a pandemic or not. So we have to have systems in place to be able to simply get out of bed in the morning and put one foot in front of the other. And it turns out those skills are transferable. I didn't know that until I wrote the keynote social distancing and staying sane, don't worry so much about your mentally ill friends. Because I bumped into a couple of mine and we all agree, you know, we got this. It's just uh we we're prepared because of what we've lived through to this point. It's like resilience. Somebody said to me, if you take any resilience classes, I said, Look, my most resilient friends are my most suicidal friends. And if they weren't resilient, they wouldn't still be here.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

Very true.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

They should be teaching resilience, not taking resilience.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

So I wonder if you would share some of those tools that you have developed. I've got a lot of really cool titles here from the book that really stood out for me. But I would like to know your resiliency practice, Frank. What are some things that have really gotten you through the depression and those suicidal moments?

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Well, the self-care plan, my self-care plan is diet. I'm on a keto diet and I do intermittent fasting. I generally eat one meal a day, one meal every 22 to 24 hours. Okay. Both things I can control. And then exercise. I'm back in the gym, thank the Lord. Yeah. With no mask. But right behind me, that thing right there is an old Nordic track.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Oh, yes, I see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Wood and straps, it's just it's like ancient. And you probably don't recognize it because it doesn't have any dirty clothes hanging on. So diet exercise, good night's sleep. A good night's sleep is restorative. Meditation. I meditate twice a day, usually after a meal. It's a guided meditation, it's called the catnapper. Oh, it takes you down and then the end brings you back up. You know, when you awake, you will feel refreshed. And I've already done it once a day, been doing it for years. It's like a reset. It's like pulling the plug on an old computer and plugging it back in. When I was 60 years old, I finally asked my doctor for a little something for depression. And what he prescribed me worked very well. Well, matter of fact, my wife noticed a change in my personality in two weeks, but didn't say anything, was waiting for me to see if I noticed. In three weeks, hadn't had this thought since high school. I like my life. Oh, what is that? Yeah, I have a good life anyway, but I hadn't had that thought since I my second thought was why'd I wait so long to take the antidepressants? Doesn't make me giddy, it just takes the edge off. Uh the other day I was cycling down, so I took a second one because it was getting really bad. I hold off, I wait, see if you know, mid by midday. If midday it hadn't improved any, I take a second one because I'm on the lowest dose available now. So another one's not gonna overdose on the antidepressants. And then um, oh, and gamification.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

Yeah, tell us about that.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

I make a deal with myself. It's a game I play. If I can't get out of bed in the morning, I make a list of six things that to-do list. And the game is once I scratch off number six, I don't care if it's three in the afternoon, broad daylight, I can go back to bed, pull the covers over my head, and binge watch the second season of The Mandalorian on Disney Plus or whatever I want to watch. The uh Queen's Gambit.

SPEAKER_04 23:04

Yes, so good.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Oh god, or the gym is 25 minutes away. So my game, my gamification, the game is if I go to the gym dressed up to work out and I go in the building, I can do one repetition of one exercise, I can turn around and go home. The idea being it gets me there. And normally I spend an hour, hour and a half. Now, I will say this right before my last engagement in 2020, March 12th, flew into Chicago, six o'clock in the evening. I went downstairs to the gym to get on the elliptical runner, and I thought, oh man, I am just so tired. I just want to go to bed. So I did 60 seconds on the elliptical and went, I win and went back to bed. Next morning I got up, did an hour on the elliptical. But my gamification technique got me to the gym.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

And the fact that I could opt out if I wanted to got me to the gym. And so that's gamification. The third thing is they ask an astronaut who's been in the space station for a year, pretty much by himself, except when they brought groceries out. They ask him, How do you handle that kind of social isolation? He said, You've got to have a routine. I go to bed about the same time every night, I get up about the same time. I eat my meals rough at the same time, work out the same time, bingewise and Netflix, same time. Every day I'm on a routine. Again, the through line is you control the things you can control, let the rest of it go. The last thing is do something nice for somebody else. People with mental illness often spend a great deal of time we do in our own heads. So if you can get out of your head and help somebody else, you not only help them, you help yourself. You take the focus off yourself and put it on them and do something good in the process. So that those are my techniques. That's what I've been teaching neuronormal people for the last 14 months on how to handle the pandemic and perhaps situational depression.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

And you're right that for those that maybe have just periodic situational depression, it's new and they're not sure how to navigate it or that they're going to come through it, or what they need to find that support to get through it. And like we've been talking about, it's hard to ask for help. Who are the people they can reach out to that you would recommend that you have found helpful in the teaching you've been doing? Because I want them to hear it from you. Because in your lived experience, how can we just find somebody to reach out to that we can start sharing our story with?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Well, the first person I would reach out to is a clinician and have a mental health checkup and find out is simply, you know, garden variety depression. Is it major depressive disorder? Is it schizoaffective disorder or bipolar disorder? And I would also recommend having a physical.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Because I have a friend here in town who was terribly depressed and he had a physical. And it turned out his body couldn't metabolize iron. So they put him on a time-released iron supplement and his depression symptoms disappeared. So, you know, find out if it's organic, you know, below the neck, something going on down there. Also, also get an evaluation. And then if medication's indicated, I think for a lot of people who are neurotypical, neuronormal, the thought of taking antidepressants sounds like a life sentence. You can take it for a period of time, and then when things ease up, you taper off. You're not going to be on it the rest of your life. And if it doesn't work very well, there's a DNA cheek swab test where they take your DNA and they try to match it to the one or two antidepressants they think would work best with your metabolism. And it can be a couple hundred bucks, it can be more, depending on your insurance. But it's a great way to dial it in. It's not perfect, but it gets closer to something that might actually work for you.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Well, and I have many people that have come to see me and they've got a prescription in hand. They've been to see their GP and they're dead against medication. And so as a clinician, as a mental health provider, I say to them, Well, let's have five, six sessions. Let's start working on a toolkit, let's start working on your wellness strategy. But if they come back to me consistently week after week and they can't concentrate, they can't focus, they can't do those things we've talked about, it's usually an indication to me just how severe the depression or their anxiety might be. So I like to reassure people, you don't always have to jump right to medication, but certainly if you have the genetic predisposition that you have, then that can be an indication that medication may be helpful. And so people might be freaked out by the thought that just because I'm depressed, does that mean I have to take medication? Well, that's not the case. Often good skill building, cognitive behavior therapy, for example, can make a big difference. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

And I talked to two women who made a documentary on psychotropics, and in their research, they discovered that about a third of the people who take any particular antidepressants like it. Works just fine. One third, eh, and the other third hate it. What I hear most often is I didn't feel bad, I didn't feel good, I didn't feel anything. Yes. If that's the case, it ain't working. You need to, you know, get the DNA cheek swab, perhaps, and try to change up the meds because it should be working better than that.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Well, and you also touched on something that I've often identified with the clients that I work with, is it is sometimes the family around you that will notice that first. As you get better, and I think of one client who had just started a new medication and they'd been trying to find a med that worked for her for quite a long time. And then I took note that she didn't come back for three months and I asked her how things are going. And I remembered she had already just started this medication the last session. And she said, Great, you know, I realized that guy I was going out with wasn't good for me. I've registered for this nursing program, I've moved out, I got my own place. And she listed this litany of beautiful, positive things that had started to happen around that three-month mark. And then she said, But I'm thinking about stopping the medication because I don't think it's working. Yeah. If you could see Frank's face right now, he's kind of shocked. It is a gradual process, and it is the family members around, or in this case, myself, that could pick up on the fact that it really was working.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yes. As my wife did it a two-week mark. It's working.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

I thought I was hiding it completely. And apparently she knew when I was struggling, unless she knew that I was struggling. Yes. But she now talked about bipolar disorder. Somebody she works with lives with someone who has bipolar disorder and they're unmedicated. And so, you know, you never know when they come home from work who's going to be coming home from work. Is it, you know, is it somebody who's happy or manic or depressed? And I said, well, part of the problem is the drugs for manic depression. You know, there's a very seductive hypomania, which is between uh manic and depressive, is a very seductive state of mind. You're charismatic and energetic, don't need a lot of sleep, don't need to eat a lot, get a lot done. And you know, you take the medication, it dulls the edge on that. And so they miss that hyper-productive state. Problem is, if you're not medicated, you could easily slip into mania and you know, paranoid delusions, or slip into the depressive state, which is far more dangerous at risk for suicide than just garden variety depression. So yeah, it's it's it's real.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

And so, Frank, tell us about what humor does for you in your journey as well. Because I think about going up in front of an audience is such a contrast to sometimes just wanting to go to bed and hide under the covers and watch Netflix. Tell me about that contrast for Frank.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yes. Well, you know, I'm I'm a comedian. People ask me every now and then, tell me about yourself. Well, I'm a comedian. No, not what you do, who you are. Well, with the risk of being redundant, I am a comedian every fiber of my being. So for me, comedy is just like breathing. People go, it's hard to get up in front of people. No, it's hard to get the job to get up in front of people. It's not hard to get up in front of people and make them laugh. So, and there's a reason they call it acting. I mean, I can get up sick with a ragged cold, or my I mean, I got introduced to do a comedy show moments after I found out my mother passed away.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Please welcome Frank. I think a lot of comedians are extrovert and introvert. You know, they're really private people when they're alone and at home, and then when they're on stage, they're extroverted. I am also extroverted when I come off stage when I'm still with the audience members. Okay. Like when I work a cruise and I'm on the ship and I'm walking about, I don't have my game face on to discourage people from speaking to me. I'm wide open. When we have lunch with them or dinner with them, I'm fine. When the word came down during the pandemic, you need to stay away from people. I was like, Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

That was a relief.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah, it's a relief. I mean, I love people, but you know, there's a difference between being alone and being alone.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And so I don't mind being alone. I get a lot of work done, and uh, that's one of the great things about working on a ship doing comedy, is before I perform, nobody on the ship knows who I am. So I can hide out in my cabin and do my work that I never have time for any other time. And then once I performed and they know who I am, then my schedule gets a little busier. But that anonymity and the ability just to hunker down and call it being a cabin rat. You never come out of your cabin.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

Well, I can hear the need for both for you. Like I get the feeling that being in front of an audience, being a comedian really fills your cup in lots of ways. Oh, yeah. But then you also need to rejuvenate and have some frank time just alone as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, I've done engagements where I've been the MC at the event, the conference, all day long. So that's eight hours of being upbeat.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

And by the time we after we have dinner that evening, I am just frazzled because I've been on for eight hours. And so I crash and burn, and you know, they don't see me again until the next morning at breakfast. I'm not going to be out partying all night long. I'm just in my room recharging my batteries. Now, that said, took me years, but I finally am the same person on and off stage. You know, they say, just be yourself. That's more difficult than it would seem. One of the greatest compliments I ever had, somebody came up on the ship after I got done. They said, you know what's amazing? You're the same person up there that you are in the Lido buffet.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Same guy. Yeah, which I thought was a great compliment.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Does that mean you're also saving some of that energy? You don't have to act so hard that you get to just find that sweet spot where you get to be frank all the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, there are a lot of comics I know who who never turned it off.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

They're funny all the time. I've got a friend that I love dearly, but I couldn't live with because they never shut down.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

Yeah. It could be draining.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I've flown next to people for four or five hours and I'm always asking them leading questions about their life. And finally, near the end of the flight, they go, What do you do? And they go, I'm a stand-up comedian. Well, you're not that funny. So I'm off the clock. So they have no idea because I didn't make no mention of it until they asked. So yeah, I don't find the need to be on or funny all the time. Good. Now, if somebody at the grocery store is in the line in front of me and they say something and it's a great setup, I'm coming out with a joke. I bet. But but otherwise, I'm not yucking it up in the checkout line.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

Sure. Well, I'm happy for you that you were able to find that spot where you could just be more of you in a steady way, but also to rely on all of these tools to help you personally. I really respect that.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Well, and part of being a comedian, I think, is I don't want people around me to be comfortable. I had a heart attack in the woods with the dogs all by myself, half mile from the car. Oh. Yeah. Have T-Mobile, so didn't have self-service. And had to get back to the car because I had to get the dogs in the car so they wouldn't be wandering out the street. And there's an old expression, tragedy plus time equals comedy. Well, the longer you do comedy, the shorter the period of time between the tragedy and the comedy. As I was being transported and got to the emergency room, I was being funny in part to make everybody else comfortable around me. The nurse said to me, Frank, no paperwork because you're having a heart attack, but I have to ask you one question. And through my pain, I said, Honey, I'm married, but I love the way you think. She starts laughing. She goes, No, your full name is Frank Marshall King the third, but what do you like to be called? Again, through the pain, I said, Big Daddy. So to this day, when I go back to Oregon Hard and Vasco and I see somebody that I work with that morning, hey, Big Daddy, you're famous. Yeah, because I want to make everybody around me, even though I'm in great discomfort, they're on edge as well. Because here's a guy having a hard day. You're dying. The heart muscles dying. You're dying. So I'm trying to make everybody, you know, feel good.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

I get a sense that maybe you learned that even at four when you told that first joke and people laughed, that you got a sense that you can really bring joy to people. But I love that your comedy now can take that form of not just bringing happiness to people and making them laugh, but also bringing light to the mental health issues, just as you've been doing.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, that was the missing piece of the puzzle. I always wanted to make a living and a difference. I could just never figure out what I had to teach anybody. And until I came very close to ending my life, which is somebody said, Well, what was the moment that you decided, you know, when you got on the speaker track versus a comedian track? I said, Well, I didn't know it at the time, but when I was in the barn and I put the gun in my mouth and pulled the hammer back, that was the beginning of my speaking career. And the fact that when I get on stage and say that I can tell what the barrel of my gun tastes like, you can see the people in the audience with mental illness lean forward. Yeah. Think I'm sure they're thinking he gets it. And the people who are neurotypical lean back like, oh dear God.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Scared. Yeah. It's it's a shocking topic. Not many people talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Well, I think I speak both for the people with mental illness and but also speak to the neurotypical people to try to help them understand the mental processes because they always wonder how could life be so bad that you'd want to end it. And I tell them, look, I didn't want to end my life. Most people don't want to end their lives, they simply want to end the pain. That's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

So I try to educate the neurotypical, neuronormal people to help them better understand, wrap their mind around these thoughts that we have.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Yes, I love that. Frank, is there anything else that you wanted to be sure we got out there to our listeners as they maybe hear about you for the first time, learn about your story and what you're doing to make a difference in this world. Is there anything else that you'd want our listeners to hear?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yes, uh, the good news. Uh the good news is that eight out of ten people who are suicidal are ambivalent. They haven't made up their mind. And nine out of ten people who are suicidal give hints in the last seven days leading up to an attempt, which tells me that the vast majority of people who are in that situation want somebody to notice something and step in. Yeah. So once you know the signs and symptoms and what to do and say, I find resources. As I like to say, you can make a difference, you can save a life, and you can do it by doing something as simple as what we're doing right here, and that is starting the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

And people are sometimes afraid to ask. Like I think it's important for people to hear that. If you are at all worried about somebody, don't be afraid to ask them. Are you at risk of harm? Because they will be glad that you asked and that somebody is genuinely interested.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yes, be persistent. If you think they're depressed and there are signs and symptoms of that, then you need to ask them, are you having thoughts of suicide? Just like that. And if you can't ask that question, find somebody you can. If they are having thoughts of suicide, do you have a plan? And then what is your plan? And if it's detailed, time, place, and method, you need to get them on the phone with a suicide prevention line. Now, this next part is not in a textbook anywhere. Something that a psychiatrist and I came up with. We both live with chronic suicidal ideation. If they have a plan, but it's not well formed, really. It's not, you know, it's a little bit nebulous. I say, okay, well, tell me, you gonna kill yourself? And if they say no, then I say, okay, well, tell me why not? Make them give voice to whatever it is that's keeping them here, whether it's friends or family or pets or whatever, just make them give voice to the fact my mother and my father desperately wanted children. My mother carried two to term that didn't make it before she got pregnant again, had me and a fourth time my sister. Will you find the courage to try a third and fourth time after after carrying two to term? I have no idea. But if you said to me, Why are you not going to die by suicide? Well, one of the reasons is my mother was so brave and worked so hard to bring me here that I feel like I have to work as hard and be as brave to stick around.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

I love that perspective. And so that's part of your why.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yes. But if you ask me, you know, why are you not going to kill yourself? That's one of the things.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

And I think that would be good for most people to really find their why, to really think about that if they are even ambivalent to be able to think about what are some reasons that I could find to really hang my hat on today that I why am I still here?

SPEAKER_01 40:23

What's what's keeping me here? Why am I, how come I haven't? You know, and give voice to it.

unknown 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Tell me why. Tell me why you're not going to kill yourself.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Mm-hmm. Well, Frank, I so appreciate that you are bringing light to this, that you are out there talking to people, and you may not even realize how many people's lives you've been saving as you do so. So for you to participate in a resilience project today, share your story and help many to at least hear what it can be like, maybe find themselves in your story and to hear that they're not alone, then we will have done our job.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yes. And there may be somebody listening who has chronic suicidal ideation who just discovered that it has a name, that they're not a freak and not completely alone.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Yeah, and that there's hope.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Yeah, and that's my job. I'm not a clinician, it's not therapy. I'm just, I'm just, I speak to plant seeds of hope.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Beautiful. I love that. Well, thank you so much for taking some time out of your busy schedule to be part of this project. And it's an honor to have you on to have this conversation, Frank.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Well, Frank, it truly is my pleasure. Friends, I want you to know it is okay if this conversation led you to feel a little uncomfortable. We are not used to talking about mental health out loud or in this forum. It can feel scratchy, but I hope you will continue to have these conversations with others or share this podcast with someone who needs to hear it. The more we talk about it, the more comfortable it will become. If we close our eyes or cover our ears, it's still going to be there. As Frank suggested, we may prefer to be in denial, but what if each one of you could save one life? Would that be worth the discomfort? I think it is an interesting phenomenon that men tend to shed friends over their adult years, leaving them more likely to feel isolated when dealing with depression. Frank had a number of solid recommendations on how to connect with other men and begin having these conversations. Those of you who have raised boys may have noticed your son will be more likely to open up if you're driving them to school or to their activity or out for a walk. In connecting through activity, it can feel safer to have these hard conversations. Here are some of the rich highlights Frank has shared from his resilience practice. Having a healthy eating plan that is in alignment with your physical needs and emotional well-being is a really critical piece. Exercise. Two common ones that we hear a lot about. Having a healthy routine. You don't have to think about it when you just know exactly what you need to do next. Do something good for someone else. Control the things that you can and let go of the rest. And I also liked Frank's title of Gamification, which is designing a game specifically for you. Make a list of the six things that you need to accomplish. Once those are completed, you can go back to bed or watch TV or whatever you need to do to rest. And number eight would be build your pit crew. Surround yourself with the people you love and trust. Like a triple A program, you know they will be there when you need them. Frank has also wanted us to share his personal phone number so that any Anyone who might be struggling could call and have a friendly voice to connect with. His number is 858-405-5653, and it will also be on the website for our resilience project. Of course, any of these ideas are not meant to replace the advice of your doctor or health care provider. In sharing his story of living with chronic suicide ideation, Frank has been connecting with individuals who are struggling with mental health concerns, helping to build a bridge from that place of isolation to one of feeling understood and no longer alone. In sharing this podcast, if we can help Frank build that bridge, then we will have achieved our goal for this episode. Here are a couple of reflection questions for you to consider. Number one, if you were to develop your personal triple A plan, who are the people that would be on your pit crew? I invite you to make sure you have the phone numbers of your people and perhaps even a code word that you establish that it indicates that you might need support right now. Number two, what could be your gamification strategy for doing the next hard thing? Remember, friends, we are stronger than we think, and when we support one another, we can grow a community of resilient individuals. Thank you for listening to this episode of a resilience project. We would not be doing this podcast without you. If you or someone you know has an inspirational story or is helping to build resilience in their community, please email me at cindy at a resilienceproject.com. In fact, email me either way. I would love to hear from you. My hope is to feature an episode periodically on your letters of resilience. I'm very interested in hearing your story of how you have tackled hard things and what worked for you. With your permission, I hope to share some of these stories along the way with our listeners. Also, check out my website, arresilienceproject.com to learn more about our amazing guests. Your presence here is important because together we are cultivating a village of resilient individuals. You are creating a space for their stories to be shared and a sacred space for learning to occur. I also have a favor. I would love for you to go to your preferred podcast platform, rate, and review the podcast so that we will know how we're doing. I also would like to express my gratitude to the amazing team of volunteers that have jumped on board to support this project. You will find each of those beautiful people on my website on the team page. As you go about this week, I invite you to think about one way that you can continue to grow your resilient muscle. What is one thing you can start with today? See you next week.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

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