Ian Lindsay & Associates: Ian Lindsay of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979. He has been with RE/MAX, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network since 1996, marketing and selling residential, rural, strata, recreational, investment and project development real estate. Ian has received several awards recognizing his exceptional community commitment locally. As well as awards for outstanding performance and achievement from both RE/MAX International and the Vancouver Island Real Estate Board. You'll find true real estate professionals at IanLindsay.ca. 

Rockin Rhonda & The Blues Band: Here comes Peter. Here comes Dave. Oh listen. Bringing stories, making waves. No missing. Spinning tales in the podcast cave. So much laughs and insights everywhere. Peter and Dave, they're on the mics. Alright, join the ride. It's gonna feel just right.

Peter McCully: Welcome to the Pulse podcast, where we ask the question who's on first? That'd be Dave Graham, or maybe he's the goalie 

Dave Graham: and he is Peter, I don't know, one sport from the other McCully. On this episode, we'll talk to Ed Willes. For over 20 years, Ed was a regular sports columnist for the province newspaper. His latest book is an irreverent look at the history of the Canuckalheads called Never Boring, the Up and Down History of the Vancouver Canucks. 

Ed Willes: Pad came in and changed everything. He changed the culture, he changed the direction, but most importantly, I think the way he changed the way the Canucks thought about themselves and the rest of the league thought about the Canucks. He made moves. He didn't turn them around overnight, but within his arrival, within three years, they were a force in the NHL for the first time. They had a playoff run in 89, but from 91 to 94, those were all good teams and they were all seemed very close to winning a Stanley Cup. And of course, the 94 team goes to game 7 against the Rangers before they lose. If you're going to build a Mount Rushmore of Canucks figures, I think Pats is probably the first face you put up there. 

Dave Graham: We'll also talk to earthquake seismologist Taimi Mulder about the big one and hotspot for seismic activity. 

Taimi Mulder: The big magnitude 9 earthquake that can occur off our coast that has occurred in the past at timescales of 250 to 800 years. The last one was over 300 years ago, and so we're now in the time window between now and roughly the next 500 years for another one of these magnitude 9 earthquakes. 

Peter McCully: We have another clue for you as to where the tickle trunk is. Send us your correct guess and we'll put your name in the draw for a $25 Thrifty Foods gift certificate.

Dave Graham: Oh yeah, and the clue is, well, short and sweet. Where we've hit the tickle trunk this time is a spot known as Parksville's Jewel, aside from its official name. At various times, it's host to kites and castles. Where is it? Tell us in your email to contest at thepulsecommunity. ca. You can also check the website and our Facebook page for clues and winners.

Windsor Plywood French Creek: The Pulse Community Podcast is brought to you in part by Windsor Plywood in French Creek, specializing in hard to source interior and exterior home finishing products. including flooring, doors and moldings, and exterior project materials such as yellow cedar. Windsor Plywood French Creek carries high quality, responsibly sourced products and are committed to providing outstanding value and personalized one on one service to all of our customers. Homeowners, do it yourselfers, renovators, builders, designers, craftsmen, and contractors. Regardless of the type or size of your project, Windsor can help you bring your vision to life from start to finish. Let Windsor Plywood and French Creek help you with your renovation, new build, or building project. Visit them online, or call 752 3122. 

Peter McCully: We have some interesting guests for you in upcoming podcasts. We'll be chatting with Randy Bachman. He's hitting the road again with Bachman Turner Overdrive. They'll be crossing Canada with their Back in Overdrive tour. And it starts in Victoria, April the 1st.  

Dave Graham: Randy is such a storyteller. I kind of envy you, Peter, that you got to chat with him because you pretty much just have to say hello to the guy and he's off and running with his stories and he has so many to tell and they're all wonderful stories because he has lived such a life. And then there's Jeremy Perkins of the award winning French Press Coffee Roasters in Parksville and in Qualicum Beach.

You know, if Jeremy wasn't busy with his coffee business, he would be falling back on his first love music. Jeremy is also a professional musician, but our upcoming conversation will be all things coffee. We conversed the other day and he allowed me to taste a couple of things that changed my life. I'm gonna leave it at that.

Another future guest is a man who is currently working as a musician. He has been in fact for many a year now. Also a singer, songwriter, producer, a man known for having thousands of friends across Canada and wherever he goes for that matter. I'm speaking of the one and only Valdy. He will be performing some shows on Vancouver Island this year, and he'll be on the podcast soon.

Peter McCully: We'd like to thank all the kind folks who stopped by to talk to us recently. We had asked the question, what do you think of Donald Trump's invitation to become the 51st state? Needless to say, the eyes didn't have it, but Dave, it was fun nonetheless. 

Dave Graham: Oh yeah, we got some interesting responses from some interesting people, and that's half the fun right there. Where we turn up next is a mystery at this point, but I look forward to our next outing. And we are always open to suggestions. Maybe you have a good question you think we should be asking our next time out in public, or maybe you have an idea for a guest. As long as there is a story to tell, we're interested. I think it's time for our first guest. Marilyn, who's in the green room? 

Marilyn: If you are wondering about what causes so much seismic activity off of Vancouver Island, or when the big one is coming, Earthquake seismologist Tiami Mulder has lots to talk about. She joins us from the Green Room. 

Taimi Mulder: Hi, Peter. How you doing?

Peter McCully: I'm doing pretty well today. Thank you very much for joining us. It seems like there's a fair amount of seismic activity off of Vancouver Island, so Dave and I thought we should talk to someone who knows about these things. I guess, number one, what's the most popular question you get asked as a seismologist?

Taimi Mulder: Oh, this is an easy one. When's the big one? When's the big one coming? The big earthquake? The big earthquake, or even more generically, any large earthquake in B. C., but the typical one people are referring to the giant earthquake or the Cascadia, also known as the Cascadia megathrust earthquake. This is the big magnitude nine earthquake that can occur off our coast. It has occurred in the past at timescales of 250 to 800 years. The last one was over 300 years ago. And so we're now in the time window between now and roughly the next 500 years for another one of these magnitude nine earthquakes. 

Peter McCully: So any time in the next 500 years is the answer. 

Taimi Mulder: Correct. 

Peter McCully: I feel safe.

Taimi Mulder: Yeah, it could occur today or tomorrow, or it could occur 500 years from now. So, the larger the earthquake, the larger the error bars on the terms of the time it might occur. 

Peter McCully: Tiami, what drew you to study earthquakes, and specifically, what made you focus on this area? 

Taimi Mulder: This is a bit of a funny story. So what drew me to study earthquakes were the Northern Lights. I've always been fascinated by the Northern Lights. I really wanted to see them. And when I graduated from university, I saw this job posting up in the high Arctic and it was running a geomagnetic station and a seismic station. So I applied for the job and I actually got it. And I went up and I worked at the northern end of Ellesmere Island.

I'm all excited because I thought, wow, I'm up north. I'm going to see the Northern Lights. It turns out that where I was going to be at the northern end of Veldsmyr Island, 350 miles from the North Pole, was within the polar cap region. And there's not really a lot of Northern Lights in the polar cap region.

So there I was up in the high arctic, running a seismic station, and there was no northern light. Actually, there were some northern lights, but there were more like a green glow in the sky, and that was about it. At least I was disappointed about that aspect. But that started my association with seismology.

I used to spend my summers out on the water, and we would come in to Hap Bay, which is around the corner from the ferry terminal in Victoria and Sydney. I saw this big institution there, and I knew that it did science, and I thought that would be such a cool place to work. And I remember walking around the building and peering in after hours at this time, and you could see the kind of work people were doing, and I thought that was really fun.

Eventually, after working in a few other places, I ended up here at the Pacific Geoscience Center. 

Peter McCully: Let's talk about the earthquakes off Vancouver Island, particularly the ones, um, underwater. Do they affect the marine ecosystem at all? 

Taimi Mulder: They do. And the biggest reason it's not too much the earthquakes themselves. It's the fact that offshore there's the. Juan de Fuca plate that extends to a halfway of Vancouver Island all the way down to the Oregon California border. The Juan de Fuca plate system, on the western edge of that, it abuts up against the Pacific plate, which is a big tectonic plate that underlies the whole Pacific Ocean.

And on the boundary between those two is mid ocean ridges. There's a lot of volcanic activity as magma comes up from the mantle. So these plates are moving apart, which is what a mid ocean ridge is, the boundary between two plates that are moving apart. And magma comes up to the surface in the form of small volcanoes.

There's always seismic activity associated with this. One of the reasons we get so much activity offshore is because of the ridges. There are very specific ecosystems, so you have a lot of hot gases coming up from the mantle. in these areas, and the water is substantially warmer. It's got different salinity and different chemicals in the water, and those regions have very specific life forms that have adapted to living there.

Peter McCully: Tiami, why is this region experience significant seismic activity? Is it because of the plate that you talked about? 

Taimi Mulder: Yes, as the earth was forming and it cooled, the heavy minerals sunk to the center of the earth and the lighter ones floated to the surface and as it cooled, you got a crud formed on the surface of the earth.

These broke up into big tectonic plates. Where these plates bump up against each other, you get earthquakes. These plates have moved around because of the convection of the mantle, uh, material through the center of the earth. These plates are floating on top of that and they move around the earth. And they've done this over time scales of millions of years.

Currently, Under the Pacific Ocean is the Pacific tectonic plate. Underneath North America is the North America plate. And caught in between these two is the Juan de Fuca plate system. And that extends from about halfway up Vancouver Island down to the Oregon California border. This plate is subducting underneath the edge of North America. And that means that diving down underneath the edge of the North America plate, this all happens offshore where you have these. margins between the tectonic plates, you always get seismic activity. So there's mid ocean ridges and transform fault on the west side of the Juan de Fuca plate where it's moving away from the Pacific and then on the subduction zone itself that compresses the North America plate above it and that bit of the Juan de Fuca plate that's diving down into the mantle underneath the North America plate is also being compressed and it gets earthquakes as well. 

Peter McCully: Tiami, I read that smaller regular earthquakes relieve some of that stress that you've been talking about on the plates. Do they relate in any way to the potential for larger events like The megathrust earthquake that you mentioned?

Taimi Mulder: Smaller earthquakes do not change the state of stress. You would have to have so many small earthquakes to equal a large earthquake, that this just doesn't happen. It's a logarithmic scale. As you go up the scale, it would take, for example, a hundred magnitude twos to make a magnitude four. And then it would take a thousand magnitude twos to equal a magnitude five. And so on as you go up the scale. It's not really relieving the stress in any significant way every time you have one small magnitude two or three earthquake. 

Peter McCully: Can you explain the relationship for us between earthquakes and tremors and and tsunami risk in this area off the island. I remember reading stories of a tsunami that occurred in Port Alberni back in the 60s.

Taimi Mulder: Yeah, this big earthquake that I've talked about, the Cascadia Megathrust earthquake, that itself can cause a tsunami. And in order to get the tsunami, you need to have displacement of the ocean floor. And that means it has to move up or it must move down. And that moves the whole column of water above it.

And that can send a wave all the way across the ocean. So the 1964 earthquake was actually up in Alaska and they had one of these big subduction earthquakes. The subduction earthquake is where you have a plate going and diving down or subducting beneath another earthquake and that interface sticks and then it flips and then it sticks and it flips.

Where we are, that's every 250 to 800 years, it flipped. Up in Alaska in 1964, it flipped and there was a displacement up and down of the ocean floor and that caused a big tsunami that came down and funneled itself through to Port Alberni. And it did quite a bit of damage there and it did damage up and down our coastline as well.

So we're at risk from large distant earthquakes that cause tsunamis and we're at risk for earthquakes that occur I'll call it a tsunamogenic earthquake that occurs along our coastline as well. And that would be something like the Cascadia megathrust earthquake. We first discovered from this office that there really was a subduction zone here off this coast.

This was unexpected because prior to that there really was no idea that we were sitting on top of one of these subduction zones. And in the mid to late 80s it was starting to become accepted from work done out of this office by Dr. Gary Rogers, that we really were on a subduction zone and the subduction zone existed.

And then a couple decades later, Dr. Gary Rogers with Dr. Herb Drager discovered episodic tremor and slip. And this is every 12 to 14 months as the Juan de Fuca plate is diving underneath the North America plate. It sticks and it slips. It sticks and it slips. And during the sticky part of the cycle, it is very slowly moving, but it's not really causing big earthquakes.

This is known as ETS, Episodic Tremor and Slip. It was one of the really big findings to come out of this office. The existence of this in seismology is a huge finding and very unexpected. 

Peter McCully: What are some of the common misconceptions about earthquakes that you would like to address as we chat here? 

Tiami Mulder: Peter, we've touched on one of these already, that smaller earthquakes do not relieve the stress that would cause a substantially larger earthquake.

I'd like to talk about confusion between the intensity of shaking. versus the magnitude of the earthquake. For example, I'll often get asked, there was a magnitude 6. 8 earthquake near Seattle. What was the magnitude in Vancouver? Magnitudes for the earthquake are the same worldwide. Magnitude is an attempt to describe the energy relief at the source of the earthquake.

And there are various different ways of obtaining magnitudes. But in a nutshell, that's what we're striving to do to make some assessment about the magnitude. The amount of energy that was released and how the ground might move from an earthquake. An earthquake causes the ground to move. When you're close to the earthquake, there's a very strong intensity of shaking.

And as you move further away from the earthquake, as one might naturally expect, the shaking dies down. And so the further away you are from an earthquake, the less you'll feel it. And in fact, when you're near the earthquake, you'll feel very sharp high frequency motions. When you're further away from the earthquake, the high frequencies die out and you're left with this long rolling sensation from very large earthquakes.

Intensity is the amount of shaking that disperses as you go further away from the epicenter or hypocenter of the earthquake and magnitude is the constant size of the earthquake that is the same no matter where you personally are on the planet that earthquake will always have that magnitude. The second misconception that I'd like to address is that Weather is not a factor in earthquakes.

Having more rain, for example, does not cause an earthquake to happen. The third one I really would like to mention is that Vancouver Island will not fall into the ocean. We might, with a very large earthquake, get rockfall. Parcels of land, perhaps maybe the size of a parking lot, might drop down a meter or so during the subduction earthquake, for example.

Vancouver Island will still be there at the end of the day. There'll just be an awful lot of shaking. You can expect things like rockfalls and landslides. 

Peter McCully: Excellent. I'm quite relieved to know that I'll still be here. I hope most of us will be. Tell me, how do the ocean bottom seismometers work and what challenges do you face when you're monitoring earthquakes under the sea?

Taimi Mulder: Usually the ocean bottom seismometers are used for experiments and they're dropped off the ship and the sensor is in this big sphere. The sensor is in there, the seismometer, the digitizer that converts the data to digital and then the data logger, which records the information and saves it along with the battery.

Later the ship goes back months to a year later and it will collect these spheres as they rise to the surface. So the sphere will have a little time delay on it or a submersible will go down and retreat these spheres, one of the two. There is also with ONC, which is Oceans Networks Canada, there's a cabled observatory offshore.

Ocean bottom cable that's running offshore and that actually has power and there are a number of ocean bottom seismometers that are attached to that. And this is the biggest difference between those seismometers and the ones that I spoke about before is that those ones actually have power and they have communication so we get the data in real time.

The biggest challenge when monitoring those earthquakes through the ocean bottom seismometers are the fact that for the most part Unless you're on the cable observatory, we don't have power, we don't have communication, so we have to wait for the data. And then there's a lot of challenges associated with retrieving the instrumentation.

Peter McCully: We hear more and more about artificial intelligence in our everyday lives. Is there a role for AI in modern seismology, maybe in identifying patterns and predicting some of these events? 

Taimi Mulder: There certainly is and currently being used in a lot of research data sets to go in and delve into older data sets and even current day data sets. A lot of it's used for mostly for phase identification. So when there's an earthquake, there's a primary wave that arrives, it's a compressive wave, like a sound wave, and then all the particles in the earth are moving in the direction of that wave, and then there's a secondary wave that arrives, and that's a shear wave, it's usually the one that does a lot of the damage for larger earthquakes.

In this, the particles in the earth move side to side compared to the direction that the wave itself is moving. You could go into this, I think, activity with AI, and you could identify the phases and different families and types of earthquakes, things that look similar in the waveform patterns, and that can help a lot in earthquake location.

And so people are using this on many different research data sets to go in and take another look at the seismicity in a certain area and to build up a better catalog of events over time. From that you can then do a lot of other subsequent research looking at that area. 

Peter McCully: What are some of the more surprising or unexpected findings you've encountered in your research on seismic activity?

Taimi Mulder: One of the really fun things that was observed was that past season, the current Taylor Swift concert, all the seismic shaking, there was so many people jumping up and down that was recorded on the seismometers in the area. And then the other fun one was when I was first starting here, I'd worked in our office in Ottawa for a while and then I'd come out here to be a graduate student and I was being employed part time at the Pacific Geoscience Center while I was at UVic.

I remember being in the office one day and one of the technical guys came up to me and he says, I think there's an earthquake in Port Alberni. And I went and looked at the seismometer and I said, oh. Well, something's certainly happening. Doesn't really look like an earthquake to me, but something's happening.

So he called up the school. The seismometer at that time was in the field associated with the school in Port Alberni. And so the principal ended up going out to have a look at the seismometer to see what was going on as they walk out there. Lo and behold, what did they discover but two young students making out on top of the seismic vault?

There's a nice big article in the Port Alberni newspaper about that and there's even an article in one of our seismic journals about the love waves. This is a really funny thing in seismology because there was a seismologist decades ago by the last name of Love who identified a particular type of surface wave.

It's a seismic wave that travels from the surface of the earth and it's well known as a love wave. Now there's an article about these love waves at Port Alberni in one of our seismic journals. 

Peter McCully: Mentioning interesting last names. Yours is Mulder. Did you ever hang out with someone named Scully by chance?

Tiami Mulder: Actually, as a matter of fact, I have the geological community of Victoria. We get together. This is the Federal Geological Survey of Canada and the Provincial Geological Survey and the Geological and Earth Science students at UVIC would all get together on a yearly basis that a barn spiel. And one of the students had the last name of Scully and we were on the same curling team. We had ourselves up as Mulder and Scully and we made sure everyone knew it. 

Peter McCully: And what else would seismologist students do but toss rocks, right? 

Taimi Mulder: You got it. These are very special rocks. 

Peter McCully: Tiami Mulder, thanks very much for being with us today. We appreciate your time. 

Taimi Mulder: You're welcome. Thank you. 

Dave Graham: Ah yes, the risk of living along the infamous ring of fire. I took an emergency preparedness course once. I'm very grateful for it. I encourage others to do so. I have my emergency packs, yes plural, one in the house. And just in case there's an issue with access, I have one in the garage. See, I learned these things. And I have footwear under the bed because if the big one hits, it could happen at night. And you don't want to be distracted in the first moments of an emergency by going without footwear and perhaps stepping in something. 

Peter McCully: Dave, you're always stepping in something. 

Oceanside CWeed: Oceanside seaweed. That little pot shop is Parksville's first licensed cannabis store. Since April 2022, Seaweed is under new ownership. With a product expert at the helm, that includes two decades of retail mastery and seven years in the cannabis industry, Seaweed is a legacy in the making. With cannabis products regulated by Health Canada. Community Minded Seaweed is a member of the Parksville Chamber of Commerce, the Parksville Downtown Business Association, and the Retail Cannabis Council of British Columbia. Those 19 plus can drop by the store at 154 Middleton Avenue next to Tablet Pharmacy. Open Monday to Friday, 9 a. m. to 8 p. m. Weekends and holidays, 9 am to 7 pm. Visit the online store at cweedoceanside. ca 

Dave Graham: As we mentioned earlier, we are starting to get out to meet people and connect that way, but we are also always keeping the door open to hear from you, and it's through our “Speak to Us” online link.

You can literally talk to us using your phone or your computer, or you can text us, if that's a better option for you. Comments, questions, answers, suggestions, we're ready, just click the link. 

Peter McCully: And we're also getting closer to Robbie Burns Day. We've talked about this a couple of times in previous episodes, Brian Weiss of Qualicum Beach will make an appearance on the podcast to address the haggis, which is the highlight of any Robbie Burns night dinner.

Dave Graham: We have another project on the go. It's stories for kids. Skookum Kids Stories podcasts are delightful original stories about a boy named Peter and his pet Eskimo dog, Gracie. They're always finding adventure. 

Peter McCully: And my favorite is Captain Dave and his stories of adventure aboard the Mellow Submarine. You'll find those Pulse podcasts and Skookum Kids Stories on the PulseCommunity. ca website, SkookumKids. com, Apple, Spotify, iHeart, Amazon, and YouTube. If you're interested in joining our growing family of sponsors for The Pulse Community and Skookum Kids Stories podcasts, let us know. Email peter at thepulsecommunity.ca. 

Ian Lindsay & Associates: Ian Lindsay of Lindsay and Associates has played an active role in the local community since 1979. He has been with RE/MAX, Vancouver Island's most advanced real estate business network since 1996, marketing and selling residential, rural, strata, recreational, investment and project development real estate. Ian has received several awards recognizing his exceptional community commitment locally. As well as awards for outstanding performance and achievement from both RE/MAX International and the Vancouver Island Real Estate Board. You'll find true real estate professionals at IanLindsay.ca. 

Dave Graham: You know, I got this song stuck in my head. I don't know if we could play a part, but maybe I could sing just a bit of it. The good old hockey game, the best game you can name. Is that not it? Stompin Tom, good old Stompin Tom. I really need to get that song out of my head. Time to talk hockey though. Marilyn, who's in the green room? 

IanLindsay & Associates: In the green room is a person most BC hockey fans will recognize. For more than 20 years, Ed Willis was a regular columnist for the province newspaper and covered the Canucks. He has written a new book entitled, Never Boring, The Up and Down History of the Vancouver Canucks. 

Peter McCully: Thanks for having me on, Peter. I enjoyed the book and I was surprised to learn when I read the book that the Vancouver Canucks of the NHL were not the first hockey team named the Vancouver Canucks.

Ed Willes: Oh, no, there is a history with the Canucks. I think the original iteration of the Canucks goes back to just post World War II, but there was a team called the Vancouver Millionaires that actually won the Stanley Cup in the World War I era. There's always been hockey in Vancouver. Maybe not as quite as colorful as the history of the NHL Canucks, but there is a rich tradition and legacy involving the game in our city.

Peter McCully: And you really do dive into all the stories there are to tell about the Canucks and all the various iterations of management and captains and general managers and whatnot. And I wondered during your research, what was the most surprising or fascinating story that you uncovered about the Canucks that Most fans wouldn't know.

Ed Willes: It's probably the very first chapter, and I had no idea this was the case, but all the unnatural forces that have haunted the Canucks, most people think they started in 1970 with the spin of the carnival wheel that cost them Gilbert Perrault, and that set loose all the forces that have beset and hindered the Canucks throughout their history.

It actually starts before that. It starts prior in the run up to the 1967 round of expansion in the NHL. The Canucks are supposed to be a slam dunk for that round of expansion. So they're supposed to be one of the six teams that joined the original six. In 1967, Clarence Campbell, who was president of the NHL, was saying publicly, yes, the Canucks are in.

They had a local ownership group. Everything looked great until Stafford smite. The chairman of the Toronto Maple Leafs throws a massive monkey wrench into everything. The deal is, as Mike tells the city of Vancouver, he will build them a new arena, and that will guarantee their entry into the 67 round of expansion, but the only proviso is, the city of Vancouver has to donate the land.

Now, the land he wanted is where the Vancouver Public Library sits, which is, you know, a fairly significant piece of real estate in our city, so. It becomes this massive divisive issue. It goes to a plebiscite. It gets voted down. Stafford Smythe says that Vancouver is a Bush league city. There won't be NHL hockey in here for a generation.

Didn't quite work out that way, but there's something weird happened just after Smythe makes his public pronouncement because. There was a local ownership group who seemed poised to buy the Canucks and run them. And when that news fell, they went into complete disarray. They became splintered, disorganized, there was infighting.

By the time they made their pitch to the NHL for a team in 1967, They were roundly dismissed, and Clarence Campbell said this is a joke, this is an embarrassment. They get in 1970, but the local ownership is still in disarray, they're still bickering, they're still in fighting. And that's why the Canucks first owner is a dude named Tom Scallon.

Do you want to know about Tom Scallon, Peter? Of course. Tom Scallon was from Minnesota. He owned a medical insurance company. He owned the Canucks for three years and then he got arrested and he ended up doing a stretch in Ocala prison for fraud. And that was the Canucks first owner. The weird stuff happened really right from the get go.

And there's, yes, there's been some really nice moments that offered hope that gave Canucks fans a respite from all the losing, but there's also been a pattern over the last 50 years. That's pretty hard to ignore. 

Peter McCully: There's a long list of what ifs in the book. One was that, and this one interested me because the team was up and coming when I was a youngster. One was Al Arbor who won four Stanley Cups with the Islanders. One of the strongest teams ever in the NHL. He was actually interviewed for the head coaching position of the Canucks. 

Ed Willes: Yeah, he was. It was quite early on. Arbor had been a journeyman defenseman and I'm not sure if he'd coached a team. I know he played with St. Louis in that original round of expansion, but he'd either been a coach or he's looking to get into coaching. Well thought of in hockey circles. He was interviewed and reportedly the Canucks were interested, but Ivor looked at that ownership schmozzle and said, no, not for me. And he goes with Bill Torrey, didn't start with the Islanders.

And of course, I think this is 73. Within seven years, they're winning Stanley cups and they win four in a row. And really one of the great dynasties in NHL history, the Clacks in the meantime, a little lurch from one bad coach to another, and they really don't fix the coaching component permanently until Pat Quinn arrives in 1987.

Peter McCully: As I mentioned, there's a lot of what ifs in the book. Another was players who they have not signed over the years. One, he had wanted to come to Vancouver and he didn't get signed. And I wrote his name down here somewhere. Wayne Gretzky wanted to come to Vancouver. What happened? 

Ed Willes: Yes. Quite a successful hockey player, if memory serves. It's toward the end of Wayne's career. So it's, I believe it's the summer of 97. It was after he was traded from Los Angeles to St. Louis. Plays in St. Louis. Now he's an unrestricted free agent. Canucks are first in line. They woo Wayne. Wayne really likes Vancouver. He likes Pat Quinn. He likes the team they've got.

His wife Janet actually starts talking to the other Canucks wives about what the best neighborhoods are, what the best schools are. Again, it seems like a slam dunk. And it comes down to a meeting in Seattle between Wayne and his representative Mike Varnette. And John McCaw, who is the principal owner of the Canucks, and his right hand man, Stan McCammon.

So they're having this meeting in Seattle, and then they hammered out the parameters of a deal. About 11 o'clock, Wayne stands up and goes, Okay, it looks like we've got something here. I'm gonna go to bed. You guys finish it off, and we'll sign it in the morning. So he goes off to bed. This all came through Barnett, the retelling of this story.

They agree to the numbers, they agree to term, they agree to everything. And it's about two in the morning now. Barnett stands up and he goes, yeah, that's great. I'll just show this to Wayne in the morning. We'll sign it. And Wayne will be a Canuck. This wasn't good enough for Stan McCammon, who was convinced. Barnett was going to take that offer and shop it around the NHL. So convinced, he insisted that Barnett phone Gretzky at two in the morning to tell him it was a take it or leave it proposition. So Barnett protests, says, no, that isn't the way Wayne does business. You've got nothing to worry about.

McCammon is insistent, so Barnett phones, regrets, he wakes him up at two in the morning. Wayne is deeply unhappy at this turn of events, and he's even more unhappy when the ultimatum is presented to him. And he says, no, I'm not going to commit right now, I want to talk to Janet in the morning, and then we'll sign it, like I said.

And McCammon said, okay, the deal's off the table, and they pulled it off the table, and I think it's in the space of three days, he signs with the Rangers. So that's bad enough, but there's a couple of layers to it. The principal one is this isn't the way in the late 80s, but he was still a very effective player.

He goes to the Rangers. I can't remember. He got pretty close to 100 points and he leads them into the Eastern Conference Finals next season. He has another very productive season. So those Canucks teams were decent. But they were missing a Wayne Gretzky type player in their lineup. He would have been the difference between them making the playoffs and not making the playoffs and maybe even having another one of their famous runs from out of the blue.

That's the one thing. But the more egregious part from a Canucks fans perspective is the guy they signed was Mark Messier because he was the next shiny object that came across John McCaw's field of vision. They bring in Messier and of course that just turns into a complete disaster. He brings in Mike Keenan, they trade away players that are belumped in Vancouver.

It's such a big part of the Canucks story and it really takes Brian Burke to fix things, but there's about a two, three year period where it was as bad as it's ever been for the Canucks, which is pretty bad, I think we know. 

Peter McCully: I thought the Pavel Bure era was particularly dramatic. What insights did you gain about the Russian rocket's time in Vancouver that maybe didn't make it into the contemporary news coverage?

Ed Willes: I think people were always aware there was two threads to Pavel's story, and one, he was an incandescent talent. No question about that. The most exciting, the most gifted player in Canucks history, whether or not he was the best Canuck, that's another conversation, but just in terms of pure talent and everything he brought, he was a singular figure in Canucks history, I was at the game when he made his Canucks debut.

And it was one of the most electric events I've ever witnessed. Midway through the first period, he gets the puck in his own hand, goes through the whole Jets team. He stopped, but first of all, there's this stunned silence, but he does it again the next shot. And now you can just feel the buzz going to Arena.

And every time he was on the ice, every time he touched the puck after that, the place just started to vibrate. It really was something. There's Pavel the player and his numbers speak for himself. But while all this is going on, there was always this secondary story and he was never really happy with his contract.

Didn't seem really happy in Vancouver, might not have been the best teammate, very productive for sure. Did he fit well within the team chemistry? Probably not. And then it finally ends, he makes his demand for a trade public, but he'd already been to management a couple of times by that point requesting a trade.

One of the what ifs I posed is the Canucks got Igor Larionov, and there's, it's a longer story there, but Igor Larionov is Deeply respected figure in Russian hockey and he was still a very effective player It took him a year or two to find his stride with the Canucks But when he did he was a real key part of their team and Dave Babbage Who I have a world of respect for said have the Canucks been able to keep layering on up?

There's no doubt in his mind. They would have won a Stanley Cup at some point between 94 and 96 the problem was Igor's contract expired with the Canucks after three years It gets into a beef with the Russian Federation, who's got their hand up for a share of his contract. Igor says, I am not signing another contract as long as one penny is going to the Russian Federation.

So he doesn't sign with the Canucks. He goes and plays in Switzerland for a year, and when he comes back to the NHL as a free agent, he ends up in San Jose. Igor played another 10 years after that, and he won Stanley Cups with Detroit. He could have been the missing piece on that 94 team for the Canucks.

Peter McCully: You mentioned John McCaw, Ed, which of the Canucks management decisions over the years do you think had the most lasting impact on the team, both positive and negative? 

Ed Willes: I come back to Mike Gnasier and that had McCaw's fingerprints all over it and it was just so typical of his approach. Team building in the NHL is a different exercise than it is in other sports.

Yes, you need star power, but it's got to be methodical. It's got to be broad based. It is really hard to fill the holes in your line up to free agency. You can augment your lineup, but really you have to have your core established and then maybe assemble some pieces around it. The connects did it the other way.

They kept trying to bring in like big mains and then try and fill depth around them and they never got the equation right. Messier is the most glaring example of that. There's just so many things that went wrong during the McCaw era. And it was mostly because. He really had no interest in owning a hockey team in Vancouver.

He just got into it because he stepped in when Arthur Griffiths got overextended, started writing checks and he couldn't get out of it. But it was clear. He really had no desire to own a team in Vancouver. The other problem is so many of the decisions were made by Stan McCammon and not many of them worked out in the Knox favors.

Peter McCully: You were talking about bringing in big names to build up the team, but on the other hand, the Sedin twins were brought in right from the start, right from the draft, and they revolutionized the franchise. What behind the scenes stories about their development and impact stood out as you covered the Canucks over the years?

Ed Willes: This doesn't come as news to Canucks fans, but they're very well aware that Sadin's first three years in Vancouver were disappointing. They were trumpeted as these franchise saviors, and they'd been the most valuable players in the Swedish elite league. They came over 21, and they struggled for their first three years.

They didn't make an immediate impact. They were depth level players. They were okay as depth level players. But that wasn't what was advertised. That wasn't what they were supposed to bring. I think the best part of their story is just the way they worked out of that. And they did it just through their own dedication and perseverance and relentlessness.

They made the decision, we have to get bigger, we have to get stronger, but the way they devoted themselves to that, and had a former coach of theirs in Sweden named Bert Emanuelson. He was a bit of a savant in the training. A lot of the things he does are mainstream now, but at the time, they were new and a little revolutionary, and the Sedins built themselves up.

And maybe the only good thing to come out of the NHL lockout in 2004 and 5, is it bought the Sedins another year. So they went over to Sweden. They kept training at Emmanuelson's training program. And when they came back, they were transformed. They all of a sudden now they're frontline players, they're point of game players.

And again, the neat thing about them is two, three years later, they take another league where they become elite NHLers, where they're winning individual awards, where they're leading the league in scoring. It's like a gradual buildup, but it's all through hard work. That's why they're just so revered in Vancouver.

They didn't take any shortcuts. They worked for everything they got and they never took it for granted. Unlike everybody else in Vancouver, I just have the utmost respect for them. 

Peter McCully: Ed, in the book, you mentioned that Vancouver's often been labeled a tough hockey market. Why is that? How is the relationship with the team and the fans evolved over the decades?

Ed Willes: I think the short answer to that, it's a tough market is because they don't win. And the Vancouver fans are incredibly passionate. They're loyal, but they're incredibly passionate. And I can't think of another fan base. That would suffer some of the things Canucks fans have suffered quietly and accepted good naturedly.

They've borne witness to just incredible blunders in the management level and the player development level and so many things. The fact that those fans are still there and still support the team and they're still waiting for that one big payoff to me says something. So is it a tough market? Yeah, they get critical, but because the fans are very knowledgeable, they know what's going on, you can't fool them.

Does that make it tough? I guess maybe. But again, I come back to that same point. What would they expect? Would they expect them to, like, cheer when they see some of the things they've done? To wave the pom poms, to ignore what they've seen? They can't. I've never really bought that. I think it's a convenient excuse from management when things start going tough.

They always play that card and then they play the card about just how destructive the Vancouver media is. And I don't buy that either. It's just a reflection of what they've seen in the On Ice product. 

Peter McCully: In your book, Never Boring, you go into the Pat Quinn era in Vancouver. 

Ed Willes: I think top to bottom, it's between that and the Mike Gillis era, what was the best air in Canucks hockey.

When Pat took the team over, the Canucks were like a standing joke. You look at their record from 1970 to 1987, when Pat took over, and it's astonishing just how bad they were. And bad every year, with so little to cheer for. Pat came in and changed everything. He changed the culture, he changed the direction, but most importantly, I think the way he changed the way the Canucks thought about themselves and the rest of the league thought about the Canucks.

He made moves, he didn't turn them around overnight, but within his arrival, within three years, they were a force in the NHL for the first time. They had a playoff run in 89, but from 91 to 94. Those were all good teams and they were all seemed very close to winning a Stanley Cup. And of course, the 94 team goes to game seven against the Rangers before they lose.

If you're going to build a Mount Rushmore, of Canucks figures, I think Pat’s is probably the first face you put up there. 

Peter McCully: As somebody who covered the team extensively, probably nobody has covered the Canucks more deeply than you have over the years. Has your perspective changed on certain events or personalities while you were writing the book or from when they happened till you wrote the book?

Ed Willes: The one that I did a retake on was Mike Gillis. Didn't get along with him when he was the GM and he had a bit of an abrasive personality. He didn't want to the market. And I think he can take a lot of the blame for that. But when I think of the time he had here, the success he had, what he wanted to do with the Canucks.

And he clashed with ownership on the direction he wanted the team to go. I think he got a bit of a raw deal there. And I don't think the work he did in 2009 to 2011 or 2012, really, because they win the President's Cup again, I don't think it's been fully appreciated. It boggles my mind that he hasn't gotten another job in hockey now.

He's turned some down. But he didn't really get another shot, and as time goes by, it looks like he's getting further and further away from getting another chance at being a general manager, having a position of influence in an organization. That would be the one, I would say, the one figure that stands out to me.

Peter McCully: Ed, looking back at the book, what do you hope readers take away from the book, Never Boring? The Canucks place in hockey history, and perhaps where they're headed. 

Ed Willes: I'm not sure, but to me it's almost like an acknowledgement of everything they've been through over the years. I tell you what, I did a reading in Powell River not too long ago, and it was immensely rewarding, but like, I'm 69, and I was probably the median age of the audience there.

There was about 50 people there to listen to me talk and answer questions. And I just kept looking at those people that these are like lifelong Canucks fans and everything they've been through and he's still cling to those moments like 94 and 2011 and even as far back as 1982 and just how grateful they are for those and they're waiting for another shot at it.

The introduction of the book, I make the comparison between Canucks fans and Boston Red Sox fans, who had to wait 86 years from the time they sold Babe Ruth to the time they finally win the World Series in 2004. But what a glorious story that was. And I really hope something similar is in store for Canucks fans.

Peter McCully: Ed, you are never boring and neither are the Canucks, and that's also the name of the book. Thanks for your time. 

Ed Willes: Peter, thank you so much. 

Dave Graham: Now there's a guy who knows a thing or two about hockey and the Canucks. Ed's new book is called Never boring the up and down history of the Vancouver Canucks. You know earlier Peter You joked about me playing goalie, and I kind of laughed quietly to myself you I had no idea How close you were.

When I was a kid from the ages of about 7 to 13 I lived in England and skating was not a thing there at least nothing I knew of so I never really learned how to skate Yes, I'm admitting this publicly. I'm still a Canadian though, right? When I got back to Canada, got involved in a pick up game a time or two, they'd always put me in goal because that required the least amount of movement.

And then, the issue then became not about my inability to escape, but my tendency to want to move out of the way of puck shot in my general direction. 

Peter McCully: This is hard to believe, but but when I was a kid, I was a goalie. That's why I said that in the intro to the episode. And for the same reason, I wasn't that strong a skater, but you know, as soon as I get all that gear on and get out in my first organized hockey game, I discovered that I had to skate backwards as fast as the forward skate forward didn't work.

Dave Graham: Oh, sports. Don't even get me started on what happened when I played soccer. That's a story for another day. 

Peter McCully: Hey, if we can figure out the combination to Dave's ankle bracelet, we might get out again, headed to a busy spot near you. So be on the lookout for the Peter and Dave road show. We'll as we connect with you, the pulse community at various locations in the weeks to come.

Dave Graham: The Peter and Dave road show. Doesn't that sound good? Does that mean we get a tour bus? 

Peter McCully:That would be great, wouldn't it? 

Dave Graham: And roadies, and oh, it will be wonderful. Ah, enough dreaming. Hey, Pete, it's time to head down to the cafeteria and see what Mabel has on special today. You know, I think she's taken a shine to me.

Peter McCully: Lucky you. That means an extra slice of bologna in your sandwich. 

Dave Graham: You say that as if it's a good thing!

Rockin Rhonda & The Blues Band: Here comes Peter, here comes Dave, oh listen. Bringing stories, making waves. No missing. Spinning tales in the podcast cave. So to speak. Laughs and insights everywhere. What a treat. Peer and Dave. They're on the mics all right. Join the ride. It's gonna feel just right.